Trouble w/ E natural!

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Hello!

I am a high school senior and I have been playing the flute for a number of years. I have always had the most trouble playing mid-register E natural- I mean, the tone is not as lovley as the rest of the notes mid-register. I'm also having trouble making octave jumps from the low register to E natural, but none of the other mid-register notes. Is there some secret I haven't heard about yet, some secret to help "fix" my E natural problem?

ekdavies
(190 points)

Without seeing and hearing you play, I can only speculate - your teacher should be able to identify the problem.

If the tone deteriorates going down from middle F to E and then recovers playing D, I would be suspicious that the flute needs adjustments to close the F# key properly with the E key. This problem can't occur on some flutes. However, I would also expect a low octave E issue.

If the tone problem is only apparent when the previous note is in the low register, I would suspect that you need to compare the embouchure you are using playing the jump vs the descending scale. (Try videoing it).

Kara
(2900 points)

There is such things made for flutes called a split E or G donut to help with that note. That is the nature of the flute for that particular note to be harder to play.
Use more air pressure for that particular note, more then you would use for the surrounding notes.

jose_luis
(1423 points)

Check the cork position with the cleaning rod (also you can search recent posts about this). I had this problem with middle E and Eb. The cork in my almost new Yamaha was in a wrong position and when I corrected it, these two notes greatly improved.

If you have a B foot, you can also try replacing it temporarily with a borrowed C foot and check. It could be a venting problem.

The experts here may have a lot to say in this issue.

Micron
(1408 points)

Kara, I think you are thinking of third octave E, not second.

Second octave E is a weaker note on many flutes. Is your flute of a brand that may have inferior acoustic design?

Players probably tend to modify their blowing a bit to compensate, without thinking, if this problem is slight.

It could be to do with the crown cork position, or a leak at the embouchure hole end of the crown cork.

It also has a lot to do with the way the embouchure hole is cut, and Joe is the expert at that, and the other causes.

haynesflutist
(6 points)

Dear "trouble w/E natural":

Assuming that the flute is in good condition and that you are assembling and blowing with some velocity, you can also change the "vowel opening" (the position of the inside of the mouth) to a feeling of "eeee"-- say "eeee" without moving the lips, then keep that same shape of the mouth while blowing.

This can be combined with small changes in the jaw (forward) and bringing the upper lip down to make the embouchure hole smaller.

Of course, this is all without seeing or hearing you play; however, the above is what usually works on my students.

There is also some "inertia" to overcome with most flutes; that is, it is easier to hold the E than to get to ie.

Hope this helps.

Jason Blank, Haynes Artist
jblank@wmshaynes.com

jose_luis
(1423 points)

Haynesflutist,

I would like to try your suggestion of changing the mouth to vowel "eeee". But my mother tongue is Spanish and I am confused on how you pronounce those "eeee"· For me it would be along "e" sounding as in forgeeet, but I think most often these repeated vowels sound as in "tree"

Thank you for clarifying...

haynesflutist
(6 points)

Your second suggestion was correct--- it would be eee as in the english word "Tree".

Let me know how it works for you.

~Jason Blank, Haynes Artist
jblank@wmshaynes.com

Kara
(2900 points)

Please specify which E you are referring to.

Kara
(2900 points)

I indeed was speaking about the third octave E.

-Kate
Powell Artist

Lera
(1391 points)

Chek
if your keys are closed propertly.
If your Pads are in good condition.

Micron
(1408 points)

Kara, the original post says "I have always had the most trouble playing mid-register E natural"

BTW, I believe the "e" being referred to is the Spanish "i"

When people use their own dialect, of their own language, to describe tongue positions, communication really does no work outside that same dialect. An assumption is being made that speech is the same everywhere. Even for English speakers, any vowel, and especially 'e', can have many different sounds around the world.

Of course some languages, eg Spanish, have a far higher degree of consistency than English, which is probably the worst.

jose_luis
(1423 points)

It is interesting to note that the Spanish "i", more or less equivalent to the English "e" is a comparatively difficult vowel to use when singing and - I still have to try it- when flute playing.

So difficult is it that 90% of the vocalizations with one of my sing teachers are made exclusively with the Spanish "i". For male singers it is by far the most difficult vowel, almost impossible at the highest notes, but not so for for female singers, that find the Spanish "a" (as in "are") more difficult.

When I try to produce with the flute a round, fuller sound in lower notes I have been using a throat/mouth position closer to the Spanish "o" (as in "communicate"). I adopted this position by copying, in a way, what I do when singing lyric music.

I will consult today with my flute teacher concerning the use of the Spanish "i" and will let Jason know, as he asked.

Concerning consistency of languages, I find that every language has its own advantages and drawbacks.

English has been adopted as a kind of "Lingua Franca" or "universal" language because it is simpler (not having noun gender, orthographic accents and with its simpler verb structure) and so it is considerably easier to learn.

As a drawback it can be ambiguous in those aspects that have been simplified in the grammar, its correct spelling is very difficult for foreigners and the value of vowels is difficult to guess (if you do not know them in advance). I have been told that this can sometimes happen among different areas within USA.

Another interesting advantage of English is its ability to adapt very quickly to new concepts, by expanding its vocabulary without much academical complaining as would be the case with new words in Spanish or French.

Of the western tongues (I do not know others not being western), German is probably the most "consistent" (not sure of this meaning) of all. There is a good reason, as it was systhematized by Luther very recently (in the XVI century), using the structure of Latin and including lots of redundancy, derived from its three noun genders and four declination cases. For this reason it has been the language of choice for the most complex Philosophy studies

Only if it was easier to learn....

Micron
(1408 points)

Some people claim that the mouth cavity makes a difference for flute playing. I can accept that it might for clarinet and sax, where the reed is is inside the mouth, but not for flute, neither by scientific intuition, nor by experience.

After all, the vibrating 'reed' is the airstream itself, which is outside the body. Now consider shouting into the narrow entrance of a cave that contains and is lined with a lot of very soft material. Would you expect some sort of echo to come from that cave? It would be a bit like expecting an echo from inside a rolled up carpet.

I don't think the mouth cavity is much different. I don't really think that sound is going to enter the mouth via a very tiny lip aperture, resonate in the mouth cavity, and then have some sort of effect on the sound outside the mouth.

It is quite different for a singer, because the sound is actually created well inside the cavity, and we listen to what actually manages to get out. Like somebody shouting from inside the cave, and us listening from outside. Furthermore, the shape of the mouth cavity in part determines what proportion of the sound enters the nasal cavities which significantly alters the sound.

All that said, if a player raises the back of their tongue sufficiently, then eventually, and quite suddenly, the air in the mouth cavity, on its way to the lips, will be quite turbulent. And that will indeed be destructive to the way the airstream between the lips is focused, and conspicuously destructive to good tone, just as much as if the teeth are intruded into the air travelling just behind the lips.

So why do some players claim that the shape of the mouth cavity is relevant for flute? I am left wondering if they have minute changes in breath pressure (from either the muscular support, or throat constriction), embouchure, or jaw position, that occur in association with changes in mouth cavity. Personally, I can make large alterations inside my mouth, without affecting my tone at all.

For clarinet and sax, the mouth cavity DOES affect the direction at which the air enters the gap between the reed and mouthpiece, and I think this is quite significant, especially for playing altissimo. However I think this effect is much less for flute, because the reed (airstream outside the lips) is not directly exposed to the directional quality of this air inside the mouth. Sure, some "coupling " may take place, but I rather think the embouchure easily compensates for this.

Just my half-baked thinking on the topic, but I stress that within reason, as I mentioned, I can make large alterations inside my mouth, without affecting my tone at all.

Others seem to have a different experience. But I find that other players can be highly affected by mind images, such as thinking of the sound as broad, or placed further from the body, in the stomach. Others are affected by doing a certain movement while they. My choir conductor often gets the singers to do certain representative arm or hand movements while we practice. All that sort of thing seems quite meaningless to me. She has never said, "The tone I want requires more air pressure, or a more open throat, or I want a more nasal sound by raising the back of the tongue..." I suppose it is all to do with how differently people's minds actually operate.

JButky
(480 points)

There actually is a name for that particular effect (which escapes me at the moment...oh I remember buccal resonance) as it applies specifically to the flute. It will not affect one note on the flute, but is theorized to affect aspects of projection and timbre. The basic concept of that theory is that the embouchure and it's attached oral cavity act much like a proscenium arch to reflect certain wave propagations as they emerge every half cycle of the standing wave.

It is one of the explanations to explain why various flutists sound differently when playing on the same instrument.

Joe B

Bad E naturals..things to look for outside of obvious leaks and not enough practice...

1. Improper cork position
2. Inadequate key venting
3. Ditto 2, particularly the D# key

Trouble w/ E natural!

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