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mbrowne1229
(401 points)
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ok, i know there is a love them/hate them relationship with these pads and also a "you dont need to spend the money" blah blah blah. i have this repair person who is a very close family friend who, i am taking my flute in for an overhaul next week and had a consultation, offered to install straubinger pads at no additional cost. this guy is trustworthy, dont worry. i take care of my instrument, dont worry. and better yet, i know how to hold my flute, dont worry. im just wondering should i take advantage of this opportunity, what good it will do me, or should i stick to the standard muramatsu pads? if so (on either option), why? i just know these babies cost more, are offered on many american-made flutes (i think only miyazawa has them standard on their flutes, except the basic entry level one).
TELL ME MORE! TELL ME MORE! thanks. 
<Added>
"(i think only miyazawa has them standard on their flutes...)"
supposed to include "japanese flute" someplace in there.
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suzie
(319 points)
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I've heard a bunch of hype over the years regarding the Straubinger pads. More recently, I've heard much more hype over the JS gold pads:
http://users.cvip.net/~js210/fpad.html
I've heard many people complain about 'squishiness' of Straubingers as well as a wear issue with the laminated 'skin' on them. Some shops charge the same amount for Straubingers as well as the JS gold pads but I think the amount of positive reviews on the JS pads greatly overpowers what the Straubinger hype used to be like.
Personally, I've chit-chatted with one of the makers at Brannen and asked, upon many things, their opinion of the Straubinger pads vs. double-bladder. He stated that-- even on his personal flute-- he prefers the double-bladder pads and shook his head when I mentioned everyone drooling over Straub's.
I suppose that a good thing to do would be to try a flute (pref. Muramatsu as the mechanism would be similar if not identical) with Straubingers and see how you like the feel of the pads (or maybe they'd be willing to replace, say, the C key pad or something so you can sort of test it out [not sure if they'd do this but I think it'd help]).
I also found this link discussing Straubingers:
http://www.fluteland.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=6326&sid=3246992b3ec71ce8d75058caa677b2fe
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Micron
(1320 points)
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Straubinger pads are hard, so they are little able to accommodate any imperfections in their operating environment. Quite apart from their reputation to split at the edge of the pad, where the membrane is tight over a sharp, hard edge, they will be a heap of trouble unless they are superbly installed.
This implies, among other things (such as very accurate pivots), ensuring that the tone holes are perfectly level.
It is not really very common for rolled tone holes to be perfectly level, even on expensive flutes. The process of levelling them, depending partly on how it is done, carries some risk of thinning the rolled edge to the point of the possibility of collapse. After all, the metal in this rolled edge is already very thin, a fair bit thinner than the body of the flute.
Also, if the levelling process leaves flat surfaces, which have a larger-than-normal contact area with the pads, then It is highly likely that you will need more finger pressure than usual to make the pads seal.
So IMHO, you are dealing with bit of a can of worms. There are questions to ask:
1. Has anybody yet checked whether or not the flute concerned has ACCURATELY level tone holes?
2. Does the technician intend levelling them?
3. How?!! Are the risks of the method acceptable to you?
4. Does the method include keeping the edge round rather than flat?
5. How much experience does he have in levelling tone holes?
6. Is he a newly "qualified" Straubinger installer, ie just been on a course, about to practice his embryonic skills on your flute? If so, is that acceptable to you?
7. Can he refer you to a customer who has these pads, installed by himself, for at least 5 years, so you can check on after-market satisfaction?
8. What is the procedure if you are not happy with the result?
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Alieannie
(631 points)
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Micron brings up a lot of really good questions to ask and think about. I personally do like them and find I can play with a lighter touch, but they are not without their annoyances. I need to get my flute adjusted about every 6 months which to me seems pretty frequently. I don't know if it's the amount of playing I do in a week (alot!!!), the pads, or the tech I've been using, so I think I want to try changing techs.
It's hard to have straubingers on a flute that never originally had them. SOOO much prep work, like what Micron talked about, has to go into it. With what I've been through (powell with them already and converting a pro yamaha to them) I wouldn't put them on a flute that's never had them, but I do like them on my Powell, I think because it's been built/modified with straubingers in mind.
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mbrowne1229
(401 points)
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well, i dont want to say who this dude is online because the "freeness" factor may cause issues i dont want to deal with, but if you want to know who it is i can tell you via private message. otherwise, i can honestly verify that he isnt a newbie, but in fact a very trustworthy person and a highly qualified repairman. and he can give me many names (many of them big names) and has as well. im just overprotective of my flute (even though i will probably be buying a new one within the next couple of years anyway). the idea of paying for another overhaul within the next year or so (which im sure it will need because it needed it after the first year of owning my flute but i be po' and only now have the money to invest in it) doesnt seem too fun, especially after hearing how much it will cost last week versus the last time i talked about an overhaul with him about 8 months ago.
ive heard that these pads last "longer" than the standard pad and that seems like a good option.
anyone have experience with straubingers on a muramatsu?
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Kara
(2812 points)
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My opinion has changed some what about Straubinger pads. I really don't care for them and would like to get different ones on my Powell. They make a lot of slapping sounds when playing because they are very hard. (And no, I play with light fingers.) They come out of adjustment too easily. They seem to have to be reseated too often for what I would like and then it is so hard to find GOOD certified Straubinger techs that can do the job right. I took mine in to a well known place in which I will not mention on line and my pads are leaking in several places. It came back worse. I couldn't understand why I wasn't loving my flute anymore. I am waiting until Joe B has his shop up and running and then I will send it into him as I don't trust anyone else. They do split very easily also. They are nice pads when they are in proper adjustment. I would not opt for the Straubingers on a Mura though. Just my two cents
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Micron
(1320 points)
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I think Kara outlines the issues well. And more than likely she once thought Straubinger was the best that money could buy. Or am I being too presumptuous there?
Yes, they split easily.
Yes, they are noisy (because they are hard.)
Yes, they are hard... Let's say that in a typical good job on a pro flute, (and even student flutes) adjustments are often made to say 0.005 mm (i.e. accuracy of pad closing, and linkages). The slight "give" in high quality, conventional pads accommodates imperfections smaller than this. That level of adjustment takes a lot of experience and care from the technician.
With a much harder pad, the pads accommodate imperfections a lot less, so they demand accuracy say to 0.0001 mm. This degree of perfection really is asking a bit much of the mechanical environment of even well made flutes. Hence the reason that they are likely to constantly need adjustment.
The only reason I can see for choosing Straubinger is if the player is convinced that harder pads produce a significantly superior sound, and that is worth the extra hassle.
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Micron
(1320 points)
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At least that's how it looks from my perspective. (What has happened to the "edit" facility?
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JButky
(461 points)
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You don't need to edit Micron. It is expected that your posts be perfect everytime <G>.
Joe B
<Added>
Maybe I should have said
Micron, You don't need to edit.
People might wonder how they can edit Micron
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mbrowne1229
(401 points)
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what type of pad do you recommend then? i do have my option, money is not a concern when referring to pads. i believe his exact words were "you have your choice of pads. dont worry if one is more expensive than the other, ill do it at no charge. an example are the straubingers......." etc.
i just want my flute in top notch condition. should i stick with the mura pads? why? what is so great about them?
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JButky
(461 points)
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MBrowne,
First of all,
Why are you changing pads?
Are you dissatisfied with the current ones? If so what exactly?
Are you just changing pads to be changing pads?
Are the current pads needing to be replaced? (IOW, are you attempting to fix something that ain't broke?)
Don't just change pads to change pads. You need a good reason to change them. Then you can decide what you want. If your flute is playing well, leave it alone. If maintenance is becoming an issue, ANY new pad will have maintenance issues over time.
It's a pad. Flutes are designed to have them adjusted or replaced. Do it when necessary. Anything performs only as well as its weakest link and pads are the weakest link on pro flutes!
For some reason we (flute players) have fallen prey to expectations about pads. The skinny is that pads simply must seat well. And that is caused by an experienced technician, not the pad itself.
Joe B
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mbrowne1229
(401 points)
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in the years ive owned my flute (about 5 of them) its never been overhauled. its been adjusted once, but that wasnt exactly an adjustment. it was only a "dude, i have a competition in about 30 minutes and my key aint closing. HELP!" my flute was 2 years old and when i bought it it only had a minor adjustment. so that means original pads (7 year old pads on a flute i play approximately 7 hours a day, everyday), never a full COA (because i be "boke"), and it needs all of the above. badly.
i take care of my flute and put time into cleaning it, but ive noticed some "wrinking" of the pads (saw this soon after purchase) and noticed it on new muramatsu flutes as well. on others (not necessarily mine) i saw that the wrinkles sometimes fold over the tonehole (like a crease all the way across the pad) and will cause the key not to seat well. ive also heard that this is common with the mura pad? im scared it will happen to me. and im a college student who works part time in a music store (so you know im not getting paid much) and i dont exactly want to spend more money to fix it. i have the money now (and have the option to get the most for my money as well) and want it all to be taken care of.
i also have heard that there are better out there and that the mura pad is just a marketing hype that is only in place so that the "muramatsu trained" people only will work on the flute. is this true???
i just dont want to be blind in this.
<Added>
what about the cracked pads as well? why do they get that way, how to prevent it, etc.
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Micron
(1320 points)
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"i have the money now (and have the option to get the most for my money as well) and want it all to be taken care of."
The best you can do is to do your homework: Keep asking long-established, respected players and teachers in your area, where they get their flute serviced if they want the job done well, until a certain technician keeps being mentioned. Then trust that technician.
"... i also have heard that there are better out there and that the mura pad is just a marketing hype that is only in place so that the "Muramatsu trained" people only will work on the flute. is this true??? .."
You've heard the full range of comments on Straubinger pads here. Much the same applies to the modern breed of extra hard pads. It is the concept of pushing the level of hardness that is a can of worms. There is nothing wrong with top model traditional pads, such as the "Premium Deluxe" model form Music Center, also stocked by several technicians' suppliers.
"... what about the cracked pads as well? why do they get that way, how to prevent it, etc."
Many possibilities, such as:
- Low quality, brittle pad membrane
- Pad membrane overheated by a technician, making it brittle
- Any sharp metal edge, eg a sharp or damaged tone hole or pad washer.
- The player regularly fiddling with them, taking too much care of them, wiping them with abrasive material etc.
- Long use.
- For certain models, eg Straubinger, being stretched over a very small radius edge, that is part of the way they are made.
- For Straubinger type pads, the pad diameter too small, so that the sealing circle is too close to that hard, small radius.
- The instrument poorly adjusted, so that the player learns to play with gorilla grip to make the flute work.
- Drawn tone holes that are sharp because they have not been rolled (one model of Grassi flute)
- Damage by a spring, especially the F# pad, when an amateur disassembles a flute.
- And once I encountered a kid regularly poking them with a sharp object so that the flute regularly spent time being repaired, so that he did not have to practice!
etc, etc.
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mbrowne1229
(401 points)
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im going to assume my case is extra-long use. these puppies are old. but is this common with the mura pad or is it just me?
i am happy with my technician. many many many people are too. hes a reputable repairman and does a topnotch job. im not comfortable saying who he is on the forum though. but i can give you a list of many people (professionals and big names, not schoolkids) who can vouch for this dude as well.
i want to know all my options before i go out and spend $1000+ you know? money is money and the value of the american dollar is going downhill. and you know that any salesman worth his weight is going to try to sell you the most expensive thing and claim its the best thing since sliced bread even when its just a waste of money.
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