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Mysticalwaters1
(91 points)
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Hey everyone! I'm playing my piccolo in a little flute choir group soon. While practicing I became extremely sharp and my bflat sounded harmonic. I had a loose pad and forgot about it, had been a little while since I played it! Anyway that was my problem one of my trill keys the pad fell completely out and gone forever :O(
Anyway I don't have many music stores around me. I live between nyc and philly and there is only 1 real major band type store between the 2 where I got my curent yamaha flute, oboe, jones reeds and HORDES of music (really maybe it is 60% of my entire collection.) I'm saying all this b/c I have spent SO much at this store. Not to mention it's an hour away from me.
I called to see if i could just buy 1 pad. Really I would've even considered buying an entire set just to have. They were like i don't think so you'll have to give it to repair person. I go down there and once again really asked can i not just buy 1 pad, the lady looked at me like I had 3 heads, you mean "put it in yourself?" I'm like em YES! I'm no professional but i've dealt with couple loose pads and just glued them back. I know this is a new pad and maybe needs to be leveled but I just wanted something to tide me over to practice and play since the performance is soon. I explained this. And they're like "no" but NASTY as if i'm stupid. I mean i thought you negotiate here. I guess not anymore. I said well is the repair perosn in tomorrow (she wasn't in when i was there) and the lady is like "well she should be" nasty then asked when I wanted it how about in 3 days and I'm like well I'd like it by tommorrow even if i can come in at night for it (place closes 8pm.) She looks up from her pad and gives me this nastier look then says, we'll call you. they wouldn't give me a receipt b/c "it's locked up downstairs." Mind you they fixed pads on this pick 2 years prior and this pad was loose a year later. I thought well maybe b/c i rarely play it. I need to bring my flute in for adjustments and I am demanding a reciept if they take it since it's so expensive. I just didn't want to push them for fear they'd get annoyed/angry and slow down the repair process.
My question, would other type music stores let you buy pads? I'm ticked off right now. I only like to shop online from major websites for fear of theft, so I tried amazon, flute world, and ebay. None seemed available on the first 2 and ebay only had one section that sold bulk bulk pads. I just wanted to buy a couple or just 1 set in case more fell out. Now maybe since the repair person was gone they would have no clue which pad to get. When I get it back i will ask. I thought maybe part is to get repair costs. But had it oiled, i thought realigned and several pads replaced earlier and it only came to $25. I thought that was pretty cheap.
It upsets me b/c more and more I'm feeling the staff is very snobbish and b/c they are the only store like this in our area has the attitude, this is what we have... deal with it or screw you. A mellaphone was brought in by one customer one time i went there his keys were bent he had just bought it and didn't realize. The store staff and him were litterally yelling back and forth that they both didn't do it. I was so scared i almost walked out of the store. I went to a corner instead, now the customer was irrate, then he almost started crying. Maybe it wan't mellaphone but some type sized brass instrument and i know something was bent but not exactly what, must've cost him a lot but the store staff was just as nasty. See they're only nasty when there's a problem. My last issue was when i first bought my yamaha flute, it didn't come with plugs. A year later i had a free check of my flute under a warranty and while sent it there asked for plugs which i thought were suppose to come with it, the staff was like, "you know it's not suppose to be played with plugs." Well like i didn't know that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was so annoyed. I explained it's if i injur my fingers say i have a bandaide!!!!!!!!!! Then she was like "oh....i see" and made me woodend plugs which are annoying b/c it's hard to put in. I rarely use them but WANT them in case
Sorry for the rant but am i missing something here? I just like going the place i got my flute since you'd think they'd know it the best. And the repairs seemed releativy cheap compared to others. I guess I'll have to deal with them but sheesh!!!!!!
Hey check out on youtube this little girl playing a carmen piece. WOW!!! It looks like she is definitley playing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9qvzCc31Ec
Oh my gosh I just found her playing chaminade!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bS-jZ1GpKU&feature=related
Someone Playing a zelda theme that sounds really nice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nad5AJaIcBI
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Alieannie
(783 points)
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Where do you live? I'm between NYC and Philly. You can message me privately if you'd like. We probably know a lot of the same music stores!!
As far as pad replacement, it's probably best to just let it to the professionals. The have the proper equiptment to put it in and check the seal. It really doesn't cost that much and you also won't have to deal with putting the flute back together. They might get a lot of people coming in and asking for a pad so they can repair it themselves. And I bet they probably get those same people in, asking to NOW fix their flute that they broke something or glue got everywhere. I'm not saying you'd do that, but I could see it happening.
I'm not trying to stick up for them, no business should ever be rude to any customers for anyreason, but they may simply be sick of hearing the same request and get annoyed. Other than music stuff, all my jobs have been customer service or public-orientented. It can be upsetting when people don't follow the standard "protocol", for lack of a better phrase. Like when I worked in an ice cream house, and people would ask for 3 flavors in a baby scoop of ice cream..... or not understanding the special of the day is prepared ahead of time, and no we can't make if for you without sauce as it's already in the sauce, and no, sorry, we can't prepare an order special just for you without sauce since we need room on the grill for the OTHER customer orders that aren't specials, and then leave you no tip for something that's not your fault.... I'm going to stop now...
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Alieannie
(783 points)
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I feel bad for that girl, Emma, who just turned 8. She's either going to burn out by continually playing material WAY beyond her ability or suffer some sort of injury playing like that. Curved headjoint and lighter flute, anyone?? Her talent is amazing but it needs to properly be developed and nurtured, not parental bragging rights for the Sunday tea party.
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Mysticalwaters1
(91 points)
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Yea there were similar posts on youtube about burnout. I never thought injury but she is tiny and must be playing SO MUCH! I mean she's got all the music memorized! It's one thing to memorize marching music but wow...
OH the music store called me back and my pic is ready. I figured that's what they were thinking about it getting messed up but your right they don't have to be rude about it. I'm still going to look for sperate pads.
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Micron
(1411 points)
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"Sorry for the rant but am i missing something here?..."
Yes. Do you try to buy a zip from a tailor? Timber from a builder? Paint from a painter? Flour from a baker? Spark plugs from a mechanic?... Text books from a university professor?
No. These guys are set up for doing their job, not retailing parts. You buy such things from a supplier of such things.
When your technician does work for you, much of the realistic cost of the pads is built into their hourly charge. What they actually charge you for a pad, if they do the work, is pretty nominal. You don't buy a quality, non-Chinese car part, no matter how small, for that sort of money!
Next, have you considered what you said: "And the repairs seemed relatively cheap compared to others. " That relative cheapness may be possible because the technician works fast without non-profit interruptions. You are actually trying to interfere with the good service that he is offering.
Next, consider the time spent messing around selling just one pad, sorting out what diameter you want, what thickness, what type, double or single skin, whether you want a stepped construction, how firm a felt, what colour etc. Would you be prepared to pay his hourly rate for that time? Indeed if lots of people just came in to buy odd pads, then he could not get on with his work, and would not make a profit. If he charged you for that time, then you would probably be so disgusted that he would lose a repair customer.
So a technician has to draw the line somewhere. If he sells pads, then what next? ....
Don't I know it...
Next they ask what glue to use. They they try to buy the glue. They want to know how to use it... They want the whole repair manual as it pertains to pads Then they want a replacement spring for the one they broke while the key was off. And want to know how to get the broken stump out. And they want it free.
So just not selling pads is a rather sensible place to draw the line, and that is exactly where many technicians draw it.
".... they probably get those same people in, asking to NOW fix their flute that they broke something or glue got everywhere. I'm not saying you'd do that, but I could see it happening."
Yes, almost always, when a DIY job is done, a technician eventually has to re-do it, and that costs. It can cause resentment.
Example: Flute player glues in a piccolo B key piccolo pad with the most handy glue from a tube. Not the standard heat-sensitive glue used by all good technicians. Eventually the flute comes in needing adjustment, which includes the 2 pads on the B key. The technician uses heat to soften the glue and adjust the pad alignment. After some time with an unsuccessful struggle, he takes the pad out and finds the problem. Wrong glue. Most customers would resent paying for so much time spent on a single pad, so the technician in his kindness does not charge for that struggle, which should never have had to happen in the first place. Do enough of this sort of thing, and the guy won't be able to feed his kids.
"... I'm not trying to stick up for them, no business should ever be rude to any customers for any reason...'
My guess is that your got a reaction that could be construed as rudeness because you did not take no for an answer, and wasted their time arguing their non-negotiable stand.
If you want to buy your own pads, then I suggest the following pad suppliers, but be prepared for for all those hidden costs (especially in time) that technicans have to bear. (There are other pad supliers, but most will not sell in smaller quantites, and some understandably sell only to technicians)
http://www.ferreestools.com/
http://www.musicmedic.com/
http://www.musiccenterspa.com/Produzione/index.html (But if you are in USA, they may sell only to their USA agents)
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Mysticalwaters1
(91 points)
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"My guess is that your got a reaction that could be construed as rudeness because you did not take no for an answer, and wasted their time arguing their non-negotiable stand."
No really she was rude and I wasn't rude either and it was not arguing whatsoever by pushing or persisting at all. You get nowhere arguing for the most part so I don't. Well maybe walmart but that's a different story.
First off I asked on the phone if they could sell me a pad, I would have bought an entire set if they had let me.
2nd the girl said "I don't think so we usually don't."
When I got there an hour later that's how long it takes I had a different person I could tell by the voice and I asked very politely about it explained my performance was in several days but the rehearsal sooner and that i lived an hour away is there any way I could possably purchasea pad. I didn't think to ask for an entire set but they probably wouldn't either.
I only asked 1x at the store and that's when I got "you're going to put it in yourself?" with a nasty grimace. If i wasn't so desperate I would have laughed. Which of course what else am I'm going to do I sent it in for repair.
And the receipt thing bothered me but that was my fault I sould have insisted.
I understand about getting it done right first and now I'm a little more frustrated how they handled me. They should have EXPLAINED it to me. I'm not unreasonable. Maybe they get stuff like that all the time and I'd get annoyed too but I've had issues with my pic before in marching band (and that was 10 years ago yikes!) reinserting a pad only this time I lost it. I'm not a repair person but I'm not being niave I knew the risk and wanted to take it to save time. I would have paid too if I messed up by more time, money, GAS if I screwed up and yea it may be annoying to repair people my groveling self bringing it in but i'd have to pay extra to fix my screwup! Honestly I think it would have been fine but understand the policy and just have to find other ways to go around it. But it being fixed I may just leave it at that. The pads are all secure and I don't play in the rain in marching band any more thank god!!!!! That's how it was originialy damaged.
But I got it when I needed, I still plan to go back but some of the staff just irk me. Did I explain about their response to getting plug holes for my yamaha? This was 2 years ago and state to me "you're not suppose to" sternly then I EXPLAIN for dry hands and cuts. Then they realized and made it for me. Just EXPLAIN! That's all.
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suzie
(426 points)
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Mystical just reminded me of when I was 17 or 18 and had a master plan to redo my old Conn unibody flute (from the 30s). I found a music store in Deland and asked to purchase a set of pads for the flute. The people inside were like um... we don't sell pads but we'll replace them, etc. Little did they know that I'd been shimming for years before that and just wanted to try experimenting with the Conn, really. Although discouraged, you can order pads online and tools and guides to fix such problems yourself for probably less of a cost than an entire piccolo repad. Tools and appropriate supplies (and some sort of guide) is quite helpful if you wish to do something like this on your own although, as previously mentioned, is usually discouraged. Maybe if your local shop person is patient they'd be willing to do some sort of apprenticeship with you to explain how to do it yourself. *shrug* Good luck!
<Added>
Also, with another helpful link (I just noticed micron's), I have this to share:
80-cents per pad via Votaw in double-bladder (they usually use Pisoni/Lucien Deluxe from what I know)
http://votawtool.com/zcom.asp?pg=products&grp=752
and $1.56 per pad for Valentino synthetics in medium (I think medium is the standard size used, not sure)
http://votawtool.com/zcom.asp?pg=products&grp=564
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Mysticalwaters1
(91 points)
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Thanks Suzie...And guess what? After all that hoopla? I had rehersal in the church today and found my pad by a pew!!! It looked like it was swept into the base of a pew leg and looked like part of the furniture!!! It's not ripped or damaged either. So well I've got my extra pad if needed!
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Micron
(1411 points)
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"... First off I asked on the phone if they could sell me a pad, I would have bought an entire set if they had let me... "
Unless you buy pad sets sourced from the maker of the instrument, you have to specify how many of each of what size, even if you buy sets. Otherwise the supplier gets disgruntled customers... "I bought a set and only 3 of them fit" And sizes to the nearest 1/2 mm are critical for a piccolo. And furthermore, one size of a certain type will be equivalent to a different size of a different type, even from the same pad maker, because the type affects the effective size relative to a given key cup.
Lets be fair about this. IF the technician is going to see you right, it is going to take up a lot of his time. Are you prepared to pay several times the market price for a pad, so that he knows you have got the right pad. Furthermore, the "right" pad is also with respect to the means you use to install it. This pad installation, especially for piccolo, and especially for pads closing with others, is far more of a can of worms than most players possibly imagine.
A technician buys pads - dozens or hundreds of each size, and often of several types &/or thickness. Getting a suitable one, especially for piccolo, involves having looking at the way the current pads function on the instrument, taking the key off, taking the pad out, and then selecting a suitable size/type. Often as not the first selection is not suitable, so another is made. THAT is what is involved in providing a suitable pad. Imagine the time that would take for a technician obliging a customer who wants to buy one pad.
Also, for piccolo, the most suitable pad is often the one that is the most challenging to install. Very challenging for a DIY person.
IF you mail order from a pad supplier, and you finish up with something unsuitable, it is YOUR problem, not theirs, but when you buy from your local technician, it DOES become his problem, because they have a 'relationship' with their customer.
"...They should have EXPLAINED it to me. .."
Again, I don't think you are being realistic. How long has it taken me to explain this to you? At lest $30 worth of time. And as I have pointed out before, you value the low charges of this technician. He cannot charge low if he gives away heaps of charitable time.
There is no easy solution to this issue, but it helps if you try to understand the business aspects of the business of flute repair.
"... Although discouraged, you can order pads online and tools and guides to fix such problems yourself for probably less of a cost than an entire piccolo repad. ... "
For doing padding work on piccolo, heating the key cups while the instrument is assembled is involved. Doing this without melting/burning the body, pads and corks, is something to consider. I would recommend that you get this key cup heater.
http://www.votawtool.com/zcom.asp?pg=products&specific=jnprjnl0
I think most technicians working on piccolos would have this as standard equipment.
But it does not come too cheap. But dealing with melted tone holes does not come cheap either!
BTW, what is the response from Votaw, (and the eventual bill) if you order a single pad?
(BTW Votaw sell some very high quality stuff that enable technicians to do their job well. Setting up with the gear to do excellent woodwind work can be very expensive.)
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suzie
(426 points)
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Votaw no longer sells individual pads however they DO sell to individuals which I don't think they did years ago (unless it was Badger or one of the others I was trying to order from years ago...). JL Smith USED to sell individual pads around 2003-- that was always fun lol. I was referring to Votaw to the matter-of-fact that just about anyone can order from them and doesn't have to be a certified business and not that you can order 1 pad or 1 strip of cork, etc. Musicmedic.com, however, you can order individual pads, etc.
<Added>
ALSO, Votaw allows you to order in sets of 10 per pad. If anyone would've clicked on the link, the info is there. I was just referring to individual prices for comparison ONLY. Please click links for more information if questions arise, that's why they've been pasted.
<Added>
Different repair companies offer different supplies for MANY different prices. Hence the ability to make different orders for what you need from what you want. When I went to the BIR program @ Red Wing in 2004 they made us purchase 4 or so different tool groups. The first tool group gave you the choices between 3 different groups: Ferrees, Allied and Badger (or Votaw, I'll have to check). All three groups from the 3 choices of companies contained the SAME equipment and tools, same number of tools, same technical specifications between the tools, etc. BUT for hundreds of $ different in package prices. You COULD make a list (which is supplied by some repair supply companies like Ferrees) of what tools you'd need, etc. and order from as many places as you'd like and save tons of $ by mix-and-matching if you wanted to and Votaw's shipping costs are quite reasonable.
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Micron
(1411 points)
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Sorry, I just cannot follow what you are saying in your last added paragraph, nor its relevance. I tried.
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