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Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso 
 

Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso

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Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso    15:49 on Monday, April 02, 2012 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Tonehole
(48 points)



I should add that the Bigio flute was a copy of a Friedric Gabriel August Kirst one-key (two body joint) flute c.1780 the joints were for A=415 and 440.


Thanks - I've never seen a Bigio version. The Polak ones, as well as the previous factory ones from Mollenhauer/Moeck all seem easier to find.


If you have not read the J.J. Quantz Treatise, I'd advise this book.
Quantz explains how much to cover the emb. hole as this is critical to tone production. The finger holes are in line but the embouchure hole is turned slightly back by the same distance as the diameter of the emb. hole.
I would also say that how you hold the flute is important as for tone production and comfort.


I have the 'On Playing the Flute' essays by Quantz - is this the one you mean? I understood it, that the embouchure hole was turned 'away' from the player, rather than back towards the player?

The holding ... I think I just have not had enough experience (time) to practice with one. Ideally I would borrow one for a week, and then decide, but that would be a luxury.

You're right about the challenge of playing Bach's sonatas on traverso. In the Allegro passage of the Sonata No.2, the 3rd octave F always sounds ugly when I finger. The second octave F sounds veiled and airy, and I can't tell if it is me or the forked fingering.

"When I used to practice it in earnest a few decades ago, I recall doing the Taffanel and Gaubert 17 daily studies, the D.S. Wood Studies and I worked up to the Anderseon op. 63 exercises. Now I would have to take a good year to get that level of playing back"

Wow. Some of us do not have a few decades behind us! Now that you say that, it bothers me that it seems that it is either going to be my main instrument, and not one to dip into here and there, or not one I can play well at all.


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Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso    16:00 on Monday, April 02, 2012 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Tonehole
(48 points)


It is not a problem with the Böhm system, it is basically that my hands are growing old (may be faster that the rest of me does)and I have different problems if I practise too much or on some pieces that require some fingerings where I have special difficulties.


You're not making old age sound attractive!

I wonder how long it's possible to keep playing for.

The clicking noise of the single baroque key gets to me sometimes - it seems more noisy than the Boehm flutes?

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Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso    16:10 on Monday, April 02, 2012 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

jose_luis
(2365 points)

Sorry about that!. There's nothing I can do about age, apart from trying to keep healthy and enjoy life as much as I can. There is a positive side, however, that is, the being able to play and advance on my learning and most of all, enjoy it.
So far I can practise one hour daily and my hands will still be OK. Two hours is the limit and they could hurt later and I may have to skip one day practise. Three hours (in very desperate cases) can mean a real problem, so I am not doing that any longer.

<Added>

My flute has some clicks but they are mainly related to old, too compressed pads or silencers. The playing technique also plays a role. After a visit to the technician it practically has no clicks, but they may reappear after a few months.

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Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso    10:44 on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Bilbo
(1328 points)

I have the 'On Playing the Flute' essays by Quantz - is this the one you mean? I understood it, that the embouchure hole was turned 'away' from the player, rather than back towards the player?

Good that you have the book. See Ch.Ii Paragraph 2. It is to be "...turned in towards the mouth..."
The holding ... I think I just have not had enough experience (time) to practice with one. Ideally I would borrow one for a week, and then decide, but that would be a luxury.
It takes weeks of time to acclimate from Boehm's flute. Try to imagine that the players back then learned from early on on that one type of flute. Their perception of how it was done was from a different perspective.
In the Allegro passage of the Sonata No.2, the 3rd octave F always sounds ugly when I finger. The second octave F sounds veiled and airy, and I can't tell if it is me or the forked fingering.
Of all the 6 "Bach" Sonatas from BWV 1030 to 1035 that is the most difficult because of the flats and the "forked" fingerings. The High F=120-400D#?
Now that you say that, it bothers me that it seems that it is either going to be my main instrument, and not one to dip into here and there, or not one I can play well at all.
Back in and around 1980 there was a boom in early music on the college level. I'm not so sure that this has been continuing. There was also many makers of reproductions back then but making a living at it was found to be not so easy. Moeck has survived but they have been primarily Blockflöte. My Alto Rec is a Roessler Oberlender and I believe that Moeck has taken over their designs. I have performed that Rec. on a regular basis more than the Traverso. I feel that the issue with the Traverso is that it's more of a chamber instrument. It's tone doesn't cut/carry like the Boehm or even the wood head Boehms. This is often heard in recordings where the Traverso is played in some over-reverb setting and the clarity is lost. When I was practicing regularly, the Traverso is more seductively intimate than the shrill nature of the Boehm flute. This is even more true today when I hear some players who sound like they think that louder is always better.
For Boehm players, I'd advise some familiarity with the Traverso because they can get a better handle on their Embouchure/support aspect of the flute. To play it well, needs a more refined control and with less force. from this I cringe when Boehm instructors say that the flute takes a lot of air. I think that it CAN take tons of air but that it doesn't necessarily NEED to be played like that.

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Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso    15:42 on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes
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Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso    16:16 on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Tonehole
(48 points)


Sorry about that!. There's nothing I can do about age, apart from trying to keep healthy and enjoy life as much as I can. There is a positive side, however, that is, the being able to play and advance on my learning and most of all, enjoy it.
So far I can practise one hour daily and my hands will still be OK. Two hours is the limit and they could hurt later and I may have to skip one day practise. Three hours (in very desperate cases) can mean a real problem, so I am not doing that any longer.


That sounds good fun actually! Two hours is not so bad, and I found after 30 minutes on baroque traverso, my left thumb was straining. I did what the guy cover of Richard Jones 'Baroque Music' does - cocking the left hand and keeping the right hand straight. Then my left thumb really strains.

I don't get this on Boehm flute, so I wonder ...maybe it is not age? Maybe it's also the ergonomics of the flute design?

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Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso    16:54 on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Tonehole
(48 points)

Hi Bilbo,


Good that you have the book. See Ch.Ii Paragraph 2. It is to be "...turned in towards the mouth..."


Thanks, that would explain why I struggle with the hand grip and get a sore left thumb! I don't think it's my positioning ...it's the rotation of the headjoint outwards 'duh!

Hmm...I haven't understood it then. I will have to re-read it.


Of all the 6 "Bach" Sonatas from BWV 1030 to 1035 that is the most difficult because of the flats and the "forked" fingerings. The High F=120-400D#?


Now I find out

I'm using a transcription passage from the F.Bruggen excerpts of the Bach Sonatas - this one is the Allegro from Sonata II No. BWV 1003, transcribed for the Stanesby alto recorder, or just an ordinary alto recorder, like my plastic one

I think the edition you're referring to is the Moyse edition? In the first B minor sonata - the crippling forked F comes in at 119.

Pain strikes again in Sonata V with a high G, nevermind the high A in Partita in A minor.

I don't know why I use the F.Bruggen one - maybe because the printing is better, the pages sit better, whereas the booklet collection of the complete sonatas is getting wrecked from my music stand page retainers.


Back in and around 1980 there was a boom in early music on the college level. I'm not so sure that this has been continuing. There was also many makers of reproductions back then but making a living at it was found to be not so easy. Moeck has survived but they have been primarily Blockflöte. My Alto Rec is a Roessler Oberlender and I believe that Moeck has taken over their designs.


Oh...I thought Roessler had gone over to Mollenhauer. Both them and Moeck retired their traverso makers, right?

Most of the current makers are very specialised and hand-made only. I'm looking at Soubeyrans; the two Polaks and the Glatt ones. I think I will only get one if I get to try at the Early Music Festival. Otherwise, it will be hit and miss.



I have performed that Rec. on a regular basis more than the Traverso. I feel that the issue with the Traverso is that it's more of a chamber instrument. It's tone doesn't cut/carry like the Boehm or even the wood head Boehms. This is often heard in recordings where the Traverso is played in some over-reverb setting and the clarity is lost. When I was practicing regularly, the Traverso is more seductively intimate than the shrill nature of the Boehm flute. This is even more true today when I hear some players who sound like they think that louder is always better.



I think you're absolutely right! The Traverso has such a gorgeous tone - it's really addictive trying to get it right! Whereas on my Boehm, I just get frustrated when I don't get it right ...the Traverso is a pleasure to keep working on. And then, when it comes to the veiled notes, it's almost a delicacy (well, except that high 3rd octave forked F ) hearing it. I like the quieter intimate nature of the traverso, but I don't think I would want it to be my only flute.

What did you make of the Moeck vs Mollenhauer baroque traversos? You seem to be really knowledgeable on baroques, so it's a pleasure to discover!

Thinking about pitch....I'm starting to feel like I'm going to move left of the centre....and go for an extreme 392Hz, rather than 415Hz. I know the medieval lute players can return with less problems than the harpsichord players lol.

Is the 440Hz baroque traverso really as bad as everyone says? Losing the character, depth and richness of true baroque.


For Boehm players, I'd advise some familiarity with the Traverso because they can get a better handle on their Embouchure/support aspect of the flute. To play it well, needs a more refined control and with less force. from this I cringe when Boehm instructors say that the flute takes a lot of air. I think that it CAN take tons of air but that it doesn't necessarily NEED to be played like that.


I'm more of a simple system player actually. My broken flute is a simple system one (whereas the Boehm one is metal - they all sound more or less the same, no matter the cost, when compared to a proper wood simple system one ....wow!).

The simple system one is dark, pungent and rich: I find the same richness, but sweeter, almost tart like pop of the baroque very attractive. Earpiercing 3rd octave Boehm is great to annoy neighbours; baroque traverso is great for the size of my room.

Well I kind of think I can't wait to get one of my own, but I'm thinking that realistically, maybe I should just start off with the Aulos plastic one, rather than risk buying a wooden one - that can wait till I've mastered the playing style of baroque maybe?

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Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso    17:09 on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Tonehole
(48 points)



I am curious and checked Ebay for traversos. They are not cheap, but some seem affordable:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws-Flauto-Traverso-Von-Huene-copy-after-A-Grenser-boxwood-440-430-415-/200734365126?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ebcb355c6


Jose - you have a funny definition of affordable!! :D

That is grail standards for me!


This is 'affordable' :D

http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Holes-Woodnote-Ivory-Soprano-Recorder-Flute-Baroque-/120724729558?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1bc12ed6

The GT Instruments one in Poland:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Baroque-Professional-Traverso-Rottenburgh-in-415-Hz-/330709693007?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cffd5724f

are not as expensive as most new baroque flutes, but I can find so little feedback on the internet, about how they compare to Moecks, or Mollenhauers (which are safe bets, if you know nothing about baroque flutes like me, because they have good quality standards at the end of their baroque flute factory).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rhythm-Band-Flauto-Traverso-Baroque-Flute-/120889196833?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c258ec121

This is the cheaper plastic version of the Aulos baroque flute. It is not as good as the ivory Stanesby copy. I like this one a lot - it's soft and focussed, as the man says:

http://webhome.idirect.com/~toot/plastic.html

But it's really addictive....the Grensers (wow - who gets to try one for more than 5 minutes?!) are really expensive, so I think I would rather save up for a Glatt which is really special.

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Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso    17:38 on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

travel2165
(260 points)

Isn't there a difference in the fingering system for a Baroque recorder and a true Baroque traverso?

Also, the Rhythm Band "flauto traverso" instrument sold on eBay seems to use recorder fingering.


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Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso    20:40 on Tuesday, April 03, 2012 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Bilbo
(1328 points)

Isn't there a difference in the fingering system for a Baroque recorder and a true Baroque traverso?
Yes. not only does the recorder have different fingerings. (there are two systems) but the recorder comes in a "family." The Soprano and Tenor are similar to the Traverso fingerings but aren't the exact same. The Alto and Bass are transposing instruments. When you finger a G (T123) on Alto Recorder it sounds a C.

The traverso flute does get more shrill in 440 pitch and when one changes the upper body section the tuning is not uniformly different.

I don't have much time tonight to write more....more in the morning.

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Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso    05:27 on Wednesday, April 04, 2012 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Bilbo
(1328 points)

"Also, the Rhythm Band "flauto traverso" instrument sold on eBay seems to use recorder fingering. "
I can't speak for any information that you have on this but the true Flauto Traverso, (one-keyed flute) or Baroque era Querflöte is a different fingering than the Recorder. The Traverso has no thumb hole. Recorders have one that is used in either covered, open or half-holed fingerings.

I'm using a transcription passage from the F.Bruggen excerpts of the Bach Sonatas - this one is the Allegro from Sonata II No. BWV 1003, transcribed for the Stanesby alto recorder, or just an ordinary alto recorder, like my plastic one
I don't know the Violin Sonata/Partita BWV 1003. I do know the Bach Sonata for flute in Eb Major BWV 1031. If someone (Like Frans Bruggen)has transcribed is to a different key for Recorder this is interesting. The issue with the Traverso in this Sonata 1031 is that the tonality and fingerings make it rather difficult. The Forked F (Generally a bit flat relative to the Eb and the necessary but somewhat false tone for Ab is something to perfect. Bach didn't write for us amateurs ;-) His Trio Sonata from the Musical Offering. BWV 1079 Here is an execution of the 2nd mvt. :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJuG5hs_jdQ
I think the edition you're referring to is the Moyse edition?
I didn't refer to any edition. For Bach pieces I use Urtext editions and not ones that have alterations and slurs added.

I thought Roessler had gone over to Mollenhauer.
Yes. My mistake. I don't think that Mollenhauer is making that design though. It was more expressive and sweet sounding than the Moeck. I see that Folkers and Powell are still at it. http://www.baroqueflute.com/models.html
These guys are still advertising and I think they may be a good way to get into a Traverso. http://www.sweetheartflute.com/baroqueflutes.html

Moech doesn't seem to be making Traversi anymore : http://www.moeck.com/cms/index.php?id=5&L=1
The same may be true of Mollenhauer.

With used instruments, it's a hit and miss situation. They can warp in time. Of course a wood flute can always crack. I've treated mine with a good coat of unboiled linseed oil as per some instruction that I got years ago. That link from Jose luis to Ebay Von Huene isn't a bad looking flute. but the seller's comment: "This was pretty much my warm up, and exercise flute over the years, never gave it any intense concert workouts" < this interests me. What were they actually using for performing is my question. If I'm not mistaken the Von Huene flutes may have been sold at prices about twice this used price.

Is the 440Hz baroque traverso really as bad as everyone says? Losing the character, depth and richness of true baroque.
Perhaps, but try getting a harpsichord tuned to low pitch on sudden notice. Or even try discussing changing to low pitch with a violinist. These were the problems in areas where early music isn't quite so popular and dedicated specialists aren't to be found. This leaves us with solo pieces like the Bach solo Partita (BWV 1013)or the Telemann Fantasias.... or those excellent duets of Telemann.

Yes, There is also a Plastic Traverso that has been made by Aulos not a bad investment even if one has a wood version. The wood can be overplayed in a day and if you practice in a now and then way, you may be risking cracking the wood.

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Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso    15:37 on Saturday, April 07, 2012 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Tonehole
(48 points)


Isn't there a difference in the fingering system for a Baroque recorder and a true Baroque traverso?

Also, the Rhythm Band "flauto traverso" instrument sold on eBay seems to use recorder fingering.


Pretty much as Bilbo has said -

the Rhythm Band 'Flauto traverso' is a Rottenburgh copy in imitation plastic - I think the seller's comment about 'Engish fingering', is going to confuse recorder players who are used to this term (as opposed to German fingering/baroque fingering for the recorder).

The baroque recorder has a straight forward F sharp key (four holes); the baroque flute can use this method too - at least some baroque flutes, since the fingerings and cross-fingering possibilities are much greater for the baroque flute. Across the 3 octaves, the same F key (for F natural, or sharp) changes - so it gives rise to the so called 'forked fingering' where F natural is the F sharp fingering + ring finger of the right hand.

There are so many similarities of fingering between the baroque recorder with the baroque flute, that the baroque flute makes a great step for experienced recorder players. Most recorders will only go as far as the third octave E note, but the baroque flute goes up to A.

Besides fingering, the articulation and embouchure of the baroque traverso are more complex and rich than the recorder, which doesn't do well with overblowing or soft pressure. It's a completely new set of skills which I'm enjoying!

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Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso    15:51 on Saturday, April 07, 2012 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Tonehole
(48 points)

I don't know the Violin Sonata/Partita BWV 1003. I do know the Bach Sonata for flute in Eb Major BWV 1031. If someone (Like Frans Bruggen)has transcribed is to a different key for Recorder this is interesting. The issue with the Traverso in this Sonata 1031 is that the tonality and fingerings make it rather difficult. The Forked F (Generally a bit flat relative to the Eb and the necessary but somewhat false tone for Ab is something to perfect. Bach didn't write for us amateurs ;-) His Trio Sonata from the Musical Offering. BWV 1079 Here is an execution of the 2nd mvt. :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJuG5hs_jdQ


That's very very nice!

I don't know if you're aware of the recent developments in the baroque traverso - like the modern traversos made by the Canadian Beaudrin, which claims to be able to cross-finger baroque without the weaknesses like the forked F? I've never heard his flutes, but his claims to suggest his baroque traverso is on a par with a modern Boehm makes it seem fascinating (cost is another thing )

Haha ... Bach didn't write for amateurs indeed! Moyse's edition of the Bach flute sonatas - I find these harder to follow than the Urtext versions, but more beautiful when I can. I think the slur and staccato notes are somewhat annoying, when they are supposed to be helpful for interpretation.

There's a Folkers and Powell A415Hz traverso on a famous auction site at the minute. It is incredibly expensive!

Yes sadly both Moeck and Mollenhauer retired all their baroque traverso draughtsmen. I suppose that will keep the value of the baroque traversos high

Your comments about the plastic advantages make really good sense. I think I will get a plastic one after all, since I will need to practice a lot.
Apart from the Aulos Stanesby and the Rottenburgh copies, this is the only plastic baroque traverso I've seen:


[url]http://traversos-bernolin.com/traversos-en-resine[/url]

It seems to be priced in the middle of these two but there's no sound clips.

I'd like a A=440Hz baroque traverso, as well as a A=415Hz. I guess that's why some have corps de rechange, although some websites say that it's too much of a leap to engineer a traverso to play equally well for both As over a semi-tone difference.

I wonder how much time you play on your Bigio traverso, and how much care/maintenance it needs. I have a grenadilla simple system flute, but it already cracked. It can be repaired, but the headjoint is shot anyway, so I think it might be nice to swap back over to a simple baroque traverso, rather than going Boehm keys.


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Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso    17:53 on Saturday, April 07, 2012 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Tonehole
(48 points)

Aulos band traverso is not a Rottenburgh copy ..it's a Grenser copy.

Looks like everything else desirable is as dear as a new Boehm flute in the region of 1600-1800 Euros:

http://www.traverso.ch/index.html for the Stanesby A=415Hz
http://www.mg-woodwinds.com.ar/instruments.htm [Gurovich Stanesby copy]
http://berneyflutes.com/pages/02flutes/models/baroque_stanesby.html [Burney Stanesby copy]
http://www.baroqueflutes.net/prices.htm [Crijnen Stanesby copy]

The plastic Aulos Stanesby is looking very attractive.



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Re: How different do you blow for a baroque traverso    06:03 on Sunday, April 08, 2012 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Bilbo
(1328 points)

I don't know if you're aware of the recent developments in the baroque traverso - like the modern traversos made by the Canadian Beaudrin, which claims to be able to cross-finger baroque without the weaknesses like the forked F? I've never heard his flutes, but his claims to suggest his baroque traverso is on a par with a modern Boehm makes it seem fascinating

I have been aware of Jean-François Beaudin making flutes up in Montreal for some time. Although I'm glad that he's still in the business, I'd be concerned that his flutes don't quite represent the characteristics of the Baroque flutes. Most makers have tended to copy extant historical examples with little deviation from their basic design. Of course at the Time of Boehm, players and makers were 'experimenting' and this initiated Boehm's modifications.
I think the slur and staccato notes are somewhat annoying, when they are supposed to be helpful for interpretation.
I'd contend that editing is helpful in that it gives us some insight into a viewpoint of the editor. In your case Moyse. (Louis or Marcel?) Sometimes, the editing may lead us astray from our own interpretation as it may mask some musical aspect that is relevant. As an example, one long time popular edition of a duet has phrasing indication that converts certain notes into anacrusis (Pick-ups) where we could/should not perform them as such.
I wonder how much time you play on your Bigio traverso, and how much care/maintenance it needs.
I used to practice an hour or more daily. I would oil it annually. Then, it would rest for about three days to let the oil soak into the wood before I resumed. The Bigio used string for the cork joints and I would use wax to keep that in good shape. I'd polish the brass key and I'd occasionally clean the finger and emb holes from accumulations but that was about it. I did build a case out of walnut and dogwood edges. It is much more durable and safe than the original sack that it came in.


   





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