Dear Todd,
I`m so glad that Jr. High was "years ago" for you. It happens to be still fresh in my memory, and, without much trouble, I can remember learning to play my horn during those two years. One week, as I was fooling around with Frank Marten`s Balad, Christian Lindbergs recording of Gunnar deFrumerie`s Concerto was burning in my mind. I bought it, and within the span of, oh I`d say a month, I had it prepared to play with my lovely accompanist. Yeah, I really enjoyed middle school, when those solo`s were a challenge. I played on this Yamaha student horn, now I use something slightly less reputable. Todd, leave the children alone...let them buy whatever horn is shiny.

Until next time,
Mr Green

Since Mr. Green(e) is the best trombonist in the world, let`s work on his spelling and grammar.

I`m glad you mentioned that Todd. Up here on mount perfection, sometimes the little details of non-musical life are left alone. As I was perusing this forum, I noticed a post that almost gave me an aneurysm.

"BACH SUCKS!!!!!! Get either a Conn 88HTO or a Conn 88HTO-CL. Make sure you get one with a rose brass bell though. Bach`s bells don`t resinate well enough and the metal they make them out of is too thick for a good vibrating tone. The Conn is a MUCH better choice. Also, Schilke Mouthpieces are they way to go. "

John...thank you for letting us all know your level of knowledge about the trombone. I`m guessing you`ve never actually practiced a day in your life, and are depending on the horn to give you good tone. There are some facts in life we can`t ignore. YOU are obviously the one that sucks. The Bach horn, even from the factory will sound better for most trombonists than the Conn. We all know that, you freak of nature. If you customize a Conn with a Greenhoe valve, now that`s different. You probably never played on one of those either. Why don`t you go practice instead of whining about bell thicknesses. And another thing, Schilke mouthpieces on trombone? Ok, now I need to know what you are smoking son...I want some to make me great like you.

Until next time,
Mr. Greene

i think the best trombones are made by edwards....there a lil more expensive but i love mine! hope that one helps yall (u do habve to goto wiscomsin and get it custimized)

Mr. Greene,
I was hesitant at first, but I`m starting to like you.

For over 30 years I have been listening to trombone players talk about what the best horn is and 90% of that talk is wak. Generally, the people who answer these questions have no right to be members of The Fraternal Order Of Trombone Players.

I have seen Jupiter trombones that had a midrange that blows away my Bach 16LTM and know a player who was quite happy to get rid of his Shire.

All one can do for a player who wants a different horn is to make some educated suggestions and send them to a respected dealer where they can try a selection of instruments. These suggestions should be based on such factors as:

How old is the player and how good are they?

What does the player dream of becoming? Music school student? Teacher? Symphonic performer? Jazz player?

Are there price limitations?

Any one who insists that one brand and model is best above all others is ignorant and is doing a disservice to fellow trombone players.

This is a great question, usually asked by someone innocently wanting to become a better player and ending up in starting a big fight about brand loyalty. It doesn`t matter what your horn says on it, as long as you sound good. Their is no single horn that is the best, though everyone would like there to be such a horn. Every individual has a horn that is right for them, though often they don`t get the chance to play that horn because they are so focused on getting whatever horn they have heard to be the best.

That said, there are some facts about horns.

Yamaha`s tend to be very reliable and consistent. They may not have the best horns overall, but their horns are much better than an average horn from many other manufacturers.

Bach`s can be great horns, though for the most part they are not. They are very inconsistent, and most are not good horns. They are popular because they built a reputation back when they were good horns, and the company was still run by Bach himself.

Conn 88H`s are also very popular, and are much more consistent than Bach`s. Many people like Conn`s more than Bach`s.

Most custom built trombones are built to suit a person, and are generally very good horns for that person for that reason.

Finally, heavier instruments do not make the horn less resonant. On the contrary, they bring out more of the overtones than a lightweight instrument. This sound in a heavyweight insrument is projected forward and outwards though. It is easy to tell the difference from a distance, such as in a concert hall. It is harder for the player to determine the resonance unless (s)he is in a concert hall. The sound is caused by a vibrating air collumn, not vibrating metal. The metal vibrating causes a bright, harsh sound, which is why lightweight instruments are often used for lead work.

But don`t worry about the name, or the specs of the horn you play. Worry about what the sound that people will hear is. If it is the sound that you want, then and the horn plays well, then that is the right horn for you.

And by the way, lacquer is always bad and cannot ever help an instrument.

Lacquer is bad. So, unlacquered or silver-plated? How about the characteristics of these? Any other options? Unlacquered copper?
This is interesting.

To get the natural sound of the brass that the horn is made out of, you don`t put anything on top of it. Just leave the brass exposed. If you plate silver on top of the brass, it vibrates a little faster, because silver plate is a little more brittle. This causes the sound to be slightly brighter. If you plate gold on top of the silver (gold has to be plated over silver, since it won`t for ionic bonds directly to brass) it will resonate in a darker manner than either raw brass or silver, because it is a very soft metal. There is very little difference between gold and raw brass. THe difference is noticeable, but very slight. Silver, on the other hand has a real difference. It is very noticeable, but not to the point that it would hurt the expected tone of an instrument.

By lacquering the instrument (any finish could be lacquered) you are basically coating it in a non-resonant plastic, sort of as if you were shrink wrapping your horn. The horn will still have the same sound characteristics, it will just have a deader sound due to the lost overtones. It will not project as well either, because the lacquer acts as a mute, almost, as if there were a cloth bag over the bell. Lacquer is only used because it keeps the horn shiny (brass tarnishes much faster than gold or silver) and as a safety measure, because some people are allergic to brass, and you can sometimes get brass poisoning.

If you want to strip the lacquer off of an instrument, it will free the sound and projection considerably. It varies depending on what kind of lacquer, because sometimes it is necessary to heat the horn up to lacquer it, which can adversely affect the temper of the metal. However, even Yamaha (probably the hardest, strongest lacquer around) trombones have a very noticeable difference without the lacquer. On a final note, if you do end up stripping the lacquer, you may just want to strip the bell. It is much easier to clean and polish and it is the part of the instrument that really resonates. Stripping the rest of the horn would not give noticeable difference in the sound, and the thin tubes are often harder to polish to keep them clean.

hello, why isnt yamaha in this topic? i am VERY happy with my yamaha professional model tenor trombone with an f attatchment. its very nice, it plays easier than my getzen. the getzen has a wermer tone....i guess its a tie

This is great stuff. How do I strip the lacquer?

Yamaha`s are great horns. I play on a modified Yamaha, and it is the best horn I have ever tried, and I have played quite a few. They are very reliable and consistent, though they seem a great deal more mass produced than other trombones, so players tend to develop less of an emotional attatchment to them. Still, most Yamaha`s are better than most other horns, unless you get lucky and pick a good one from one of the other brands. Bach especially has a serious issue with quality control, so about 90% of the horns they make are garbage. If you want to buy a new horn, play a lot of instruments and pick the one you like best and that sounds the best, both from your perspective and someone elses.

Stripping lacquer is done in several ways, depending on the lacquer and what you want to do. On some old lacquer that is not very durable, it is possible to boil it off. Using very hot water, you can actually cause the metal to expand slightly and the lacquer to become weaker, thus causing it to flake off. There are also many chemical strippers availabble, but these are very nasty to work with. They require good ventilation, are very flammable and toxic, and require a special cleanup and disposal procedure. A method that I have found to work is to sand it off. I don`t mean take a belt sander to it. Using a fine grit sand paper, such as 220, scratch through the lacquer. Don`t take it all off or cut into the brass. After breaking the lacquer open like this, take an extra fine (600) grit sandpaper and remove the rest of the lacquer. This process takes many hours to do properly. The 600 grit will polish the horn to a high luster, though not as shiny as a perfectly buffed horn from the factory. I like a brushed satain finish, so I then used steal wool to scratch just the outside of the brass to give it the brushed finish. After the lacquer has been stripped, the horn will tarnish and get a brownish patina. This can be easily removed with a liquid brass polish, such as Brasso, that is used periodically. It may also get green crystalline deposits. These are formed when too much acid gets on the horn. This acid eats away at the brass, causing these deposits. If this happens, the green deposits must be removed, and I would reccomend using a soft cloth to wipe the horn down after every use, to get rid of acid. Some people`s bodies just produce more than other people do. On a final note, in rare cases there is a sickness caused by brass known as brass poisoning. This is not a good thing to get, so be careful. Other times, the brass can do strange things to the moisture in the skin that it comes in contact with, such as dry the skin out and make it rough. If you are stripping your horn, take your time, and good luck.

Thanks! I`ve got a couple old student models I can experiment on.

Come on folks, think about what you are doing here. For starters, the unlacquered verses lacquered instrument debate has been going on for 50 years or more. If there was an infallible answer, we would now it by know. In addition, the cellulose vs. baked epoxy lacquer can have it`s own debate.

If you really want to look at "facts", let us take a step by step look at what you are doing to your instrument when you strip the lacquer.

First, you are sanding the bell. Look at that sand paper. It is full of brass that you have just removed from your instrument. This brass removal in measurable. Not only have you just turned your heavey weight bell into a lite weight and your lite weight into tin foil, you now have a bell that is measurably less consistant in thickness and taper.

Second, when brass tarnishes, it is a chemical reaction. You cannot reverse the tarnish. All you can do is remove it. The result is that every time you have to Brasso or buff your horn, you are left with less metal than when you started. So the bell you poslished today is a little different than before you started. Repeated polishing over time results in a bell that is significantly lighter and thinner than when you started.

Since we cannot even decide whether the lacquered or unlaquered horn plays better in the first place, do you really want to destroy your instrument in an attempt to find out?

Regardless of the futility of any debate, this one is fun and informational. Opinions are sometimes helpful, even if they differ. I sanded the lacquer, and some brass, off the bell of a King 606 yesterday just as an experiment. It was in pretty bad shape anyway. I like the sound and the look. In light of your comments, I probably won`t do the same to a better horn.

Yes, personal taste and playing ability is all that really matters, but I`m learning a lot from these forums and having fun.