First of all I'd like to thank everyone who takes the time to post and answer questions, give advice, and generally be helpful on these forums. I've been a browser of this site for a while, but finally I have a question of my own, so here I am freshly registered and everything!

My name is Nick, and I'm a Horn addict.

I've been playing the Horn for about 16 years now, ever since I was in the 4th grade. I've had the luck of always having an instrument available to me for use as I've played throughout grade, middle, high school, and college. I've also had the good fortune of being able to travel around to world for the bands and orchestras I play in. I've gone all around the states, South Korea, and Italy playing the Horn.

Alas, my time in college has (for now) come to an end. I no longer have a school owned horn to call my own. This is absolutely a problem since I don't want to even think about a life without playing music. And so, I have decided to buy my very own first French Horn.

I've played a few different horns throughout my time, ranging from newer Yamaha's and Conn's, to Holton's older than I am.
Things I have come to prefer:
-Nickel, or a metal providing a similar dark tone. Yellow brass is not my taste in sound as far as the horns I have played go. Obviously I've never played a professional series horn, and I'm sure the high end yellow brass can sound just as dark, but in my experience, it's got to be nickel.

-Machine Valved. I really liked the Conn 6D I played in high school, and it had machine valves. Not having to worry about breaking/losing strings etc is a great plus for me. This however is not a necessary thing, just something I like.

-Having the little spit valve is not something I want, I'm fine with emptying slides. Again, if it has one, it isn't going to kill me.

-Obviously I want a double, but I'm not familiar with the different styles of double horns (descant, compensating etc). I've always just been given a horn to use and graciously accepted.

-Never have used a removable bell, and I'm not sure I'd want one since it just looks like it would compromise tone. Am I wrong to assume this?

Now then, things you may want to know about my playing style:

-I am an upstream embouchure player. Yes, I've heard plenty of bad things about it already, but I never had the luxury of private lessons, as much as I would have loved to have them, during school. I was self taught for the most part, but still managed to play 1st horn for most of my Horn "career," including in college where I was section leader and principal horn for 3 out of 4 years. We could turn this thread into a discussion on why I'm wrong to keep using my embouchure but honestly at this point I'm happy with it, and so I present you with the fact that I use it in case it affects some purchase choices.
-My mouthpiece is definitely not something to get excited about. After ditching my Blessing 11 in 9th grade, I bought my own Marcinkiewicz 11S. They had a demo at my high school, and it's the one they fitted me with, and me being someone who knew, and still hardly knows, anything about mouthpiece models and such just nodded, and accepted. I can't complain about my mouthpiece however since I don't have an amazing piece to compare it to and be disappointed about. It's served me well enough for years, but if this, or a new recommended mouthpiece affects horn choice, I figured it would just be safe to mention what I currently use.
-My play style is very dark, my low end is decent (better than most I've played with) and my high end is also strong up until C. One compliment I've received often is that I can really add "color" to my tone when the piece calls for it. I don't know if these things change which horn I should use, but again, trying to be thorough.
-My plans for the future are to continue with school, and hopefully continue playing in the college, community, etc bands. Who knows, maybe with a new horn and new motivation I would get more seriously about playing professionally, but for now it's just a love of music and the instrument.

As I can see that this is quickly turning into a boring wall of text, I'll try to cut to the chase here.

I hear great things about the Conn 8D. I really enjoyed the 6D I played in high school. Should I go for the 8D? It's right in my price range, I love dark tone, and it seems like a horn that could last me for the rest of my life. Also, should I try different mouthpieces for this horn, or just in general? If so, what would you recommend for my playing and embouchure style? Maybe a comparing of my Marcinkiewicz 11S to whatever piece you recommend would help me understand the differences.

A huge thanks to anyone patient enough to read my ramblings and walls of text, and my gratitude to any who take it a step further and help me out with some advice.

~Nick


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Also, I've been looking around for elkhart 8d's and noticed various series types. I can't seem to find descriptions on what the M, H, L etc means for these. Anyone care to enlighten?

Nick,
Yep, that's a wall of text. You left out where you live, what part of the country. Location influences my recomendations.First off Don't get a new horn and a new mouthpiece. When you get your new horn play it for awhile (several months)before thinking about a new mouthpiece.

As much as I am a Conn addict, I do not reccomend a Conn 8D for you at this time. The Horn sound desired in the wokring world is a changing and the newer Conns are sub-standard. The older Conns are fabulous but are not going to fit into the new American sound that's coming down the pipes. You mention concern about the different series of older Elkhart Conn series. Here is the story on the series, anytime Conn made a change in the leadpipe taper or the Bell taper the series number changed. They are all experiments, some turned out better than others. Yes, I have my favorites.

You seem to have played a few horns but you didn't specify or list all the horns you have played. If you want a nickel horn you must be sure it has a large bell flare on it. If you find a nickel horn with a medium bell flare you will not get the sound you think you are going to get out of a nickel horn. So, if you want nickel you need to get a large bell flare.

If you liked the Conn 6D and want nickel, then my first suggestion would be to get a Yamaha 668N. Your Marc mouthpiece will work fine in it and then down the road I would make other suggestions to try just to see if you still like your Marc or if you want to change.

Screw bells are great for traveling. I own 7 horns, one has a detachable bell and it was done for the purpose of traveling. Most people and 99.9% of your audience isn't going to know or hear the difference whether your bell is cut or not. Many people think is does not change the sound - but some of us do (I don't see how it can't).

Horn type - you want to get a double horn. This is the basic all around tool. You need one of these. Other horns such as descant, single Bb, single C, double Bb-bb, etc are all specialty horns. You can add them to your tool belt later down the road if you feel a need for them, have money, and learn how to play them.

There's my opinion.

Thanks for your input. Yeah I seem to have forgotten my location.

I live in the pacific northwest, currently in seattle, but also in portland at times.

I have played Yamaha, Holton, Conn, and some other types of horn but I couldn't name each model from memory. Most of them were student horns. All I can really go by is that I liked the sound and feel of the nickel horns better than the brass horns I have played. I really didn't like the Yamaha horns I tried in college, but it could be a model issue since I doubt they were buying high end horns for lending.

I did like the 6D, but most recently I have been playing the Holton circa 1960ish nickel horn (past 4 years). What is the 6D like in comparison to the 8D?

Also, what direction is the desired horn sound going in? Is the 8D really going to be a setback? That makes me sad, I really like the 8D.

Do you have any other recommendations on models I should be on the lookout for to try in music shops? I'll look for a yamaha 668n, but other suggestions would be nice as well. Same price range as the 8D would be best. I'm not against buying used as well, as long as the horn was cared for/in good shape.

Again, thanks a ton for your reply. Very helpful



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More questions! Apologies!

Are the newer 8D's really that bad enough to avoid completely? Looking at some online listing, the non elkhart 8d's are selling as low as 1800 in good condition. Very tempting to my wallet, but there has to be a catch.

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Added again, ha.

Upon some investigation the Holton I played looks exactly like the 179, so I assume it was either a 179 or some variation of that model. Dunno if this helps but just trying to supply any info I can.

Pacific Northwest - - -if you are in the PACNW then I am even more strongly in favor of the Yamaha 668N. If you didn't like the Yamaha's yo played in school there is good chance they were 500 series, which are restrictive.

I love Seattle and Portland. My brother is in Seattle and my best friend from highschool is Wilsonville.

I love the Conn 6D's. They were the workhorse for the major players many years past until everyone decided they wanted a different sound than the europeans. I have a 1959 Conn 6D that I use in small chamber groups and some operas. I don't tell people I am playing it because most people think of it as a student horn which it wasn't (but is now). I love older 6D's but good luck getting jobs telling them you play one. The Holtons are good for accuracy but I don't htink you can play as musically on them as other horns; I also find the Holtons restrictive.

The difference between the 6D and the 8D - - the 6D has a medium bell throat and flare, the 8D has a large bell throat and flare. The higher notes are easier to nail on the 6D than the 8D. The 8D can have a gorgeous sensous sound. The leadpipe/mouthpipe tapers are different. If you are going to get a Conn get an Elkhart Indiana; not an Elkhart Ohio. If you get a newer 6D or 8D you are getting a student level instrument.

What direction is the desired horn sound going? I think you will find it is going away from the large deep dark sound and goign toward a more aggressive, assertive penetrating sound. I love the 8D and have one of the darker sounds of anyone I know, but I have added 2 horns to my tool box because of the changing sound.

Other recommendations -- I think you will be happiest with the Yamaha 668N. If you want other options I would suggest the Paxman 23 with European bore in gold brass, A Conn 8D 'K' series would be a good find, Schmidt doubles are great but rather expensive. I like the Alexander 200 in gold brass.

I have a Paxman descant in nickel; if I come up to Seattle anytime soon I'll bring it and you can try it; but unless you can play double stops and totally control your throat you will find the nickel in a medium bell throat will be to bright for you. you really have to work hard to get the sound you want. So, Gold brass is good compromise and gives a nice silky tone on the medium and european bell throats.


Are the newer 8D's really that bad enough to avoid completely? YES! They're student level horns. An exception would be a Patterson conversion.

to John: As you are the 8D expert on this forum, have you tried the Vintage 8D yet? Have they succeeded in producing a top-line pro instrument again?

to Nick: As John said, the American tradition for large Nickel horns is fading away slowly. This may also have something to do with that it is getting harder and harder to find such a horn in the quality of a European top-horn.
I don't really know much about Paxman horns, so I won't say they're good or bad. But all players I know that play them for a longer time already wouldn't give them away again.
The Alexander 200 is an excellent horn. But as with every Alex, it can be hard to find a good one. Be sure to try out a few different examples.
Finally, try to get to play a Schmid horn (not Schmidt). They are quite different to anything else normally in use (very lightweight, very free-blowing) and some people prefer them to anything.
As an alternative to the Yamaha 668, you could try a Hoyer 6801 or 7801 (the heritage series). They offer top-notch build quality and are excellent to play.

to Mave: The Conn Vintage 8D - I have seen one and I didn't think it met up with the advertising claims. It certainly did not have the sound mine have. I wish it did, and it certainly is not worth the price they're asking for them.

to Nick (and Mave):
Paxman horns had a spell of questionable workmanship. I grew up with Conn being the only acceptable instrument for the professional. Many of my friends who were solid Conn diehards and are in the top professional orchestras are playing Paxmans. Some are playing on the Schmids, but most have Paxmans. The Schmid is a winner for sure. I don't know anyone with one that doesn't like it. And that being said the ones who have them take way better care of them than any other horn anyone else has.(thank you Mave for the spelling correction I don't know why I often do that).

Alexanders are VERY inconsistant (at least the 103's and 403's)I have never seen a 200 I didn't like. If I recall correctly the 200 in an anniversary edition and limited in production (perhaps this is why I haven't seen a bad one).

I am glad Mave brought up the Hoyers. I meant to and accidently left it out. Hoyers are becoming very popular in Los Angeles area right now. I have only played a few. If I was going to get a Hoyer it would be the 7802, (Nick you will want the 7801). If you want a new Conn I would take the Hoyer 7800 series over any of the Conns made after 1970, hands down. The 7800 series is the closest you are going to get to an older Conn sound probably.

My prediction for the future is you are going to have older Conn's being used in the film recording studios and you are going to see orchestra's spliting between Paxman and Schmid.

Wow, lots of helpful insight. Nice to have access to professional opinions!

I have not seen many Paxmans or any Schmids in the shops I've visited but then again I haven't been on the lookout for them. I'll make a list of the models/makers suggested and start making a plan to locate/visit shops with them.

A couple questions (again =[ just trying to be thorough):

What is different that would make me want the 7801 over the 7802? I only ask out of curiosity so I can keep the difference in mind as I try other horns.

Second, I have been lurking on a website I believe you linked somewhere here John, http://www.homelesshorns.com/Sales.html

He has a 668 for sale for 1800 after reconditioning. Is that a good price? It seems awesome compared to other horns I've been looking at, and the seller seems reputable, but at the same time the price seems too good to be true. They also have a pre letter elkhart for 3600, which to my understanding is pretty low as well. The 1-week trial thing is a nice temptation also. Judging by the alex 200 on there for 7500, i doubt I will be able to afford one, if thats the used price. My limit is probably going to be 4000, which is why I am looking to used. If that 668 is a fair price then I'm going to seriously consider it as my main contender, once I go try horns locally of course. I realize each horn will play differently but for 1800 and a 1 week trial, if I like another 668, I'm willing to take the risk on the used one.

Thanks again, both of you, for your great input. Really is helpful.

What do the two of you play in?

Hm, it won't let me edit my post this time.

Anyway, wanted to correct my budget. I can go up to $5000 usd if the horn is truly worth it, but would definitely like to go used as I feel I can get more horn for my money.

Bah, and again something more:

www.hornsaplenty.com Anyone had any experience with this site? It all seems like such a great thing, but words are easy to type and claims are easily made.

Also, which paxman model do you think I should look for?

The Hoyer 7801 has mechanical linkages the 7802 has string linkage. (I thought you mentiond earlier you prefered the mechanical linkage type).

Hornsaplanty - I do have experience with Hornsaplanty. Check your PM's.

At HomelessHorns
_ I like the 668.
_ I like the pre=letter Conn (500 series)
_ the Patterson Conversion.

If you have $5K you don't have to spend it all. YOu also might try hornplayer.net classifieds.

What do the two of you play in? I play in whatever I am paid to play in. Usually all black, often a tuxedo, ha ha. More seriously, Lyric Opera San Diego (2nd) and Orquesta de Baja California (principal). Also lots of different jobs through contractors (weddings, special concerts, recordings, etc).

Contrary to what you stated earlier, I'm not a professional (sadly). I'm from the south of Germany, I'm 19 years old and I'll start studying Financial Mathematics at the University of Constance next week.
I've been playing the horn for 11 years now and very seriously and eagerly at that. My playing time amounts to about 10 hours of personal practicing and 2-10 hours of orchestra rehearsals a week. You won't know the orchestras, but anyway: I play in the Kammerphilharmonie Bodensee-Oberschwaben as 2nd (chamber orchestra made mostly of instrument teachers around Lake Constance, last project was the Christmas Oratorio by Bach), in the Junge Philharmonie Ostwürttemberg (state-wide youth orchestra), and in some regional symphony and wind orchestras as an engaged player.
My horn is a Hoyer 801 that I bought new 7 years ago and is due for a replacement in a few years when I've got the money. My favourite would be a Schmid horn (Schmid's workshop only is about an hour away) or a Dürk D3 (replica of the Alex 103, but more expensive and better: the whole conical end section right from the valve cluster is hand-hammered from one piece of metal: http://www.duerkhorns.de/englisch/index.html).

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To John: Have you tried both the 6802 and 7802 Hoyers? The only difference I know of is that the 7800-series is made of "pre-aged" metal. Is that difference perceptible?

I've only tried a nickel-silver 6801 so far, and I loved it. Big and dark, but not too dark sound and excellent consistency in playing through all registers.

Alright, so I've narrowed it down to two horns. Either a hoyer 6800 series, or a yamaha 668.

What are your opinions on yamaha vs hoyer, regarding these two models?

The reason I ask, is that it's easy to find a used yamaha for pretty low prices, whereas I can't seem to find many used hoyers, and the ones I do find are about as much as a new one.

If I buy the yamaha, it will likely be used. If I buy the hoyer, it will likely be new, from Houghton Horns.

So which kruspe copy is better, in general? Should I sell my bikes and get the Hoyer, or spend half as much for the Yamaha? Price here is a secondary concern. Primary is sound quality, and intonation.

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My own research turns up very little on the matter. I can't seem to find any Hoyer reviews, and the only topic of which kruspe copy is superior turned up a hornlist of conn vs yamaha vs hoyer, where no one had played a new hoyer and could not comment on them. They voted for yamaha over new conn.

I played a nickel 6801 and a yellow brass 668 back to back last year at a local music exhibition. The Hoyer was the better horn by far. I found the 668 quite restricting in the high register and stuffy in the mid-low range. Could have been just this instrument, I don't know. A 892 triple Yamaha had there as well was worlds better. The Hoyer, however, felt really great from the very first tone. Beautiful, dark sound, free-flowing and very consistent throughout the whole range.

Personally, I prefer the Hoyer horns (also because they're made in Germany). I've yet to find a bad one, having played around 15 horns by them. The only good Yamaha I played so far is the aforementioned triple.

My advise: Play the horns back to back if possible in any way. Play them thoroughly and pick the one you feel better on. Then, don't order an instrument, but get the very one horn you played.
Here's a good guide on testing out horns: http://www.corno.it/Articoli/SoYouWantToBuyAHorn.html

Wow thanks for that link, have been looking for something explaining the wraps and such, and that link was perfect.

As far as your experience with the two brands... on one hand, I am excited to hear that you preferred the Hoyer, as I would love to have a brand new horn, and a German one at that, and I have really been wanting to go for the Hoyer. One the other hand, I'm a little bummed, because it's going to cost me twice as much =] Oh well, it's been a couple years since I've ridden my dirt bikes seriously, so I figure selling them will help me much more in the long run if I can get a horn that will last and sound great.

Thanks for your reply and that link!

Oh, and regarding playing both side by side:

Unfortunately I haven't found a shop around here that sells them, much less has a used one in stock. It seems at this point that I may be able to fly down to Houghton Horns in Texas this next month perhaps if everything works out, to try several horns out. If that doesn't work out, however, they do have a one week trial period on horns, and if you don't like it, you can send it back. And in the case of their new Hoyer horns, the shipping is complimentary. Really speaks for both the dealer and the brand if they are so sure about the instrument that they are willing to pay for you to try the horn.