Fake High C
 

Fake High C

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Fake High C    18:43 on Tuesday, August 23, 2011 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Val_Wells
(216 points)

Some time back a student was asking about "harmonic" notes on the horn. I think s/he meant, the falsetto type, "trick" high notes similar to what string players can do. I just found this on the hornplayer.net archives and I'm wondering if this is what s/he was referring to.

http://hornplayer.net/archive/a297.html

I've never tried it, but I wish I had before I sold my H179! If anyone has tried this I'd sure like to hear the results. I'm going to try it on my Holton Merker & will let you know if it works. Sounds fun.

Valerie Wells
The Balanced Embouchure Method
http://www.BEforHorn.blogspot.com
http://ComfyHornStrap.blogspot.com


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Re: Fake High C    14:17 on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

JOhnlovemusic
(1277 points)

Hi Valerie,

This works on most Kruspe wrap horns. It actually can work in performance. The futher away you are form the horn the more you will hear the high C. As the performer you don't really hear it so much.

The last time I used it I was asked to do a improv Amazing Grace duet with a trumpet player at a church. He started by playing on stage and I was hidden up in the far back balcony. I came in on the 2nd verse in answer to his main melody. The duet worked really well and as we got to the end we just happened to be ending in concert F and it just felt perfect to do this trick and I did and it worked wonderfully as I was in the far back the high C carried really well throughout the entire church really softly and then I faded away.



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Re: Fake High C    17:54 on Thursday, August 25, 2011 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Val_Wells
(216 points)

Wow, how cool is that? To actually get to USE it. I tried it on my Holton Merker & I couldn't get it to work... nothing even close. ( I'lll just have to play my high C's the regular way.

BTW, John, have any tips for centering staff top G. If I center the tone with t0 fingering, it's sharp. If I center it with t1 fingering, it's flat. Anyway I play that note with a nice centered tone is out of tune and anyway I play it in tune has an offish sounding tone. I have a long sustained high G in an upcoming solo & I'm really, REALLY concerned about it.

Val


Val

Val

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Re: Fake High C    10:06 on Saturday, August 27, 2011 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

JOhnlovemusic
(1277 points)

Val,
The two most common fingerings for the high G are T0 and T1. Many Many Many people playing Conn 8D's and Yamahas use the T1. Unfortunately on Holtons it is either high or low. I've known a lot of teachers who say it can't be done in tune.

I don't know my Holton substitution fingerings (cause I don't own or play a Holton) but try these alternates and see if one of them can help you. Since your probably already on the Bb side of the horn try T13. It might drift a little high but should be better than what you're getting with T0. You might also try doing it on the F horn, we often neglect the advantages the F horn can give us up in the higher range, - my favorite would be trying 12. 12 is a good sturdy easy to hit combo fo rthat note on any horn. 0, and 13 will work but probably be high and 3 by itself might be extremely flat.

Let me know what works best.

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Re: Fake High C    17:46 on Monday, August 29, 2011 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Val_Wells
(216 points)

Thanks, so much John. I'm going to try what you suggested. I forgot about T13 and never even thought of the F horn side for that note.

I almost decided that it's better to have a pretty & centered tone that on the sharp side, but a little muffled with more hand than a fuzzy weak tone that in tune because it's lipped too much. I've been working that phrase more & more and it's getting better, even though it's not what I really want yet. Funny how practicing can make a difference, huh? ;o)

BTW, John, High horn players & professionals from all over are finding out how cool BE is. When are you going to start doing those exercises? Hmmmmm??? ;o)

Valerie Wells
The Balanced Embouchure Method
http://BEbabe.wordpress.com
http://www.BEforHorn.blogspot.com
http://ComfyHornStrap.blogspot.com



Valerie

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Re: Fake High C    19:42 on Wednesday, August 31, 2011 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

JOhnlovemusic
(1277 points)

That is so unfair for you to say that what you said ----- :-)

As you and I have discussed I probably do use a little and teach a little BE anyway.

Regarding your high G; if you have to choose a fingering that is sharp over a fingering that is flat I will always guide you to the sharp fingering. And the reason for that is the human ear is set up to accept a slightly sharp note better than a slightly flat note. The human ear will accept several cents sharp as in tune before it accpets the same number of cents flat as being in tune.

Also, and I don't know if you'll get this but you probably will. If you are sligthyl flat what the heck are you going to do to go a little sharper? Whereas if you are a little sharp you can easily and quickly open the soft palatte and throat just a little more to drop that pitch (I never adjust, or pinch, lip tension). All my fine tuning is done in the soft palatte and throat area.

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Re: Fake High C    13:20 on Thursday, September 01, 2011 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Val_Wells
(216 points)

>All my fine tuning is done in the soft palatte and throat area.<

I've found that usually works best, too. Too much lipping messes up the tone.

I agree, the choice to play a little sharp is always better than to play a little flat.

BTW, the T13 works great on that high G. Thanks for the tip.

But.... bummer of all bummers.... I found out I miss-read the roster for this upcoming performance. I'm on 2nd horn rather than 1st as I thought, so I don't get to play this solo anyway. HAH! Now that high G is someone else's glorious problem!

Valerie

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Re: Fake High C    17:37 on Sunday, October 16, 2011 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

M-Papeghin
(10 points)

Wow I did not know about that whole Fake High C trick !
Will try this as soon as I can on my good old H179

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Re: Fake High C    06:10 on Thursday, October 20, 2011 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Val_Wells
(216 points)

BTW, I DIDN'T misread the roster. I am on 1st horn. When I showed up for the first rehearsal in this ad hoc orchestra, the ditzy director told me the email was wrong, I'm on first horn. Sheesh! So I do have the solo with the awkward slur between a 3rd space C and a staff top G.

Anyway, I don't know if I can adequately describe what I figured out about that high G. If I slur this interval like I "normally" slur between other intervals (that tiny little "flick" of lips & air stream), the high G comes out with a weak tone & poor intonation. But if I do something different with my lips for this particular interval, it comes out nice.

This is going to be impossible to describe, but here goes. The "something different" feels more like a glissando instead of a regular interval slur. What makes that high G come out nice & clean, with a good tone and in tune is to pretend to "gliss" the interval without allowing any of the in-between notes to sound. Like I said, impossible to describe. There's just something different I do with my lips & the air in a glissando than a regular slur and for some reason, this maneuver produces a nice high G slurred from a 3rd space C. Go figure.

Try this & tell me if you can figure out what I mean by a gliss w/o any gliss compared to a regular upward interval slur.

Val

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Re: Fake High C    18:36 on Monday, October 24, 2011 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

JOhnlovemusic
(1277 points)

Valerie,
here is my 2 cents. I think I understand your description perfectly. And as a result of that interpretation here what I think is happening.

The 'normal' slur that gives you a weak high G is a result of you technically stopping the air and reseting the upper lip ever so slightly and trying to start it again. This is typical of the 'normal slur' school. If you could measure it you would find more tension in that upper lip than in a fully wound clockspring. You might also find that you move your lip ever so slightly and actually move some of the tissue out of the mouthpiece. Thus giving you less lip mass to make the note.

The 'something different' is probably exactly what you liken it to. It is a glissando. This is exactly what I teach my students; to slur up to the the note they want, don't try and pick the note off, but glissando up to the note you want. Doing this you will never miss the note by going too high. And if you do it quickly enough with confidence, you won't hear the other notes of the glissando, only the begining and ending notes. You will also notice that your upper lip is more like a lower note pitch. Thus giving you more mass to hold the small aperture for the high note. and with more lip mass you can provide more air, giving more support, for a fuller tone.

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Re: Fake High C    18:34 on Tuesday, October 25, 2011 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes

Val_Wells
(216 points)

I think you're spot on, John, especially with your discription of the top lip. Wow! When I only "flick" the lips & increase air speed a bit, the increased air actually moves the lips away from the aperture & widens it. This usually works successfully for most of my slurs, but not for this difficult high G on my horn. But... when I maneuver my lips in the same way as I would in a one octave glissando, I'm actually moving more lip tissue from BOTH lips into the mouthpiece so both are equally supporting the movement instead of just the top lip. This glissando maneuver is really a two-lip rolling in motion that keeps more meat inside the mpc increasing resistance against the air stream, narrowing the aperture slightly which is exactly what is needed to ascend in range & maintain a clean tone.

Thanks a million, John.

Val

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Re: Fake High C    18:44 on Wednesday, December 14, 2011 Vote for this post Vote against this post 0 votes
   

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