High register becoming a psychological problem

    
High register becoming a psychological problem    09:35 on Sunday, October 11, 2015          

Colombo
(56 points)
Posted by Colombo

I was reading a thread that's now closed (http://www.8notes.com/f/51_267252.asp), so I'm 'replying' here.

I don't think I can understand well JOhnlovemusic's explanation about frequencies. You say that 'A good all around professional horn player should have: A written high C (concert F5,698.46) and a good low written D (concert G1, 49.00)'. But if, as you say below, a written C two ledger lines above the staff corresponds to an F5 (698.46 Hz), wouldn't what you've called a 'high C' be three octaves above that (approximately 698 x 2 x 2 x 2)? I don't know whether such a note can be played or not, but I wouldn't call that a 'good' all around professional. I'd call that 'outstanding'! So I must have got it wrong, I think.

Anyway, I'm somewhat frustrated. I've been playing for eleven years now, although only two of them (between 2012 and 2014) was I able to study daily (since I was unemployed at that time, and my normal working hours don't allow me to play during weekdays). I play in two bands, always 2nd horn (if there are three or four, I always play the lowest voice, since, apart from the fact that it's easier, I do like playing the bass voice).

I'm going to talk all the time about written notes, and I'll explain also where they're written, in case my idea of what's a C4 or a C3 is wrong.

The range in which I play comfortably goes from E3 (below the third ledger line below treble clef) to E5 (fourth space in the treble clef). I know this is a very limited range, specially in the high register, but I get very nervous each time I see a note above C5, which doesn't help. I play a Yamaha 567D with a Schilke 31 mouthpiece. And, in principle, I want to stick to that mouthpiece, because I think the problem is mine, not the mouthpiece's.

If I play chromatically downwards, I can reach down to Db2 (the note just above the C in the second ledger line below bass clef). A couple of times I've been able to hit a very out-of-tune C2 (sounding almost like a B). Chromatically upwards, I don't seem to be able to go beyond G#5 (just above treble clef), and that very strainedly. A5 is just a mystery to me. For some reason, I find Bb, B and C slightly easier, but anyway, playing above E5 is a pain for me. And for those listening, I suppose.

You see why I say I'm frustrated? Even though I cannot study daily, as I've said, eleven years should have taken me up to C6 without too much trouble, I believe. I've tried everything I've been able to think of: playing a chromatic scale with long notes, with short notes, playing all sorts of arpeggios with the harmonics in all positions... I try to think of opening my throat, of keeping my lips tense and my mouth cavity small... But, even though I may be doing something wrong from the physical point of view, I'm afraid this has become more of a psycological issue. And I don't know how to approach that problem. I do know that I'll be more likely to miss a note if I think I'm going to miss it.

This is worrying me even more now because the other horn player in one of the two bands has left, and I've been left alone, which means that, for the first time in my life, I'll have to play first horn. We don't pay anything that's too demanding in that band, but I feel too scared.

Can you help me with this problem? As I was telling you, I think the psychological aspect is the most pressing.


Re: High register becoming a psychological problem    09:41 on Sunday, October 11, 2015          

Colombo
(56 points)
Posted by Colombo

By the way, I'd like to tell you I've read many other threads in this forum apart from the one I 'answered' to in my previous post. But, somehow, I haven't found anything there to help me BELIEVE I'm able to play those high notes... Which seems to be what I'd need!


Re: High register becoming a psychological problem    16:41 on Saturday, October 31, 2015          

phred
(157 points)
Posted by phred

For me, high notes comprise first, getting my embouchure settled into correct feeling and location on the mouthpiece, and secondly warming up with "Elephant tones" where I draw the lips tighter at the corners (I tell my two students "like pulling a rubberband") and drop my jaw. I do two octaves in F from middle C to C an octave below. Now, thinking you can play these notes, I just acquired a very cool descant horn that plays either F/Falto, or Bb/F alto. After playing on that horn, my high end always notches better on the F/Bb. And really, if you can play the notes on the descant, you can do it on the other. If you know anyone with a descant to loan, you'll quickly find yourself feeling more confident. Then try switching over.


Re: High register becoming a psychological problem    14:06 on Sunday, November 1, 2015          

Colombo
(56 points)
Posted by Colombo

Thanks for that suggestion. What's a descant horn? Is it a horn that can play in Bb and high F? That's what I've understood by looking it up on the web. I've never seen one. I'll ask my teacher and see whether he's got one. I don't know that many people who play the horn!


Re: High register becoming a psychological problem    03:42 on Wednesday, November 4, 2015          

corno
(7 points)
Posted by corno

I would never use a deskant horn if i am not a pro!
deskant horns are build to give the hornplayer more safety in the upper register thats for sure, but in the end practicing on this horn will absolutely change your embochure to the worst.

the bigest problem of not doobg well in the higher register is the not correct use of air.

the best way to fix it is playing long notes with startibg at ppp then crescendo to as loud as you can play without loosing control of your tone or your intonation and then playing the decrescendo back to ppp

by using this method you will greatly improve in endurance and in range. i would first recommend this try before buying a super sport model that will affect you playing to the worse if you use it all the time


Re: High register becoming a psychological problem    09:36 on Wednesday, November 4, 2015          

phred
(157 points)
Posted by phred

Como, I agree with the technique you describe. It is a powerful tool. About the descant, he's trying to build confidence, and I'm suggesting it more as a psychological tool and understanding the note placement. Not suggesting that one is purchased or even used for an extended time, just to hear and feel the note, knowing it can be done. Another tool in the kit I was shown was described to be as rocking the note. It's like the beginning of learning to lip trill. Start at the second highest note and slur up to the overtone in the series. As you get higher, it will be closer than a whole step. They should be slow. Once worked up as high as you go, reverse it. That helped me feel the notch of each note.


Re: High register becoming a psychological problem    11:14 on Thursday, November 5, 2015          

Colombo
(56 points)
Posted by Colombo

Thaks for the new input! Of course, I wasn't thinking of buying a descant horn. I understood that it was a suggestion to try and actually play those notes, with a little help from the horn, so as to believe that I can really play them, and that just a little bit more of extra work will make me play them without having to resort to that "trick".

Anyway, my teacher hasn't got such a horn, so that's something I won't be able to try for now. I'll keep on asking.

I will try that ppp<fff>ppp exercise. I had no idea I could use it to improve my range. I had always thought it was good to improve my dynamics (I have trouble playing very loudly, too: my loudest seems to be sort of a f/ff).


Re: High register becoming a psychological problem    01:24 on Friday, November 6, 2015          

corno
(7 points)
Posted by corno

If you use that exercise try playing it without tonging. that way you will need to set up your embochure exactly with the strengh you need for hitting the right note. try to start with a small amount of air that the note pops almost out of nothing theb start increasing your ir pressure by trying to contol the crescendo to as loud as you get then reduce the pressure and play the same way ubtil the note vanishes again in absolutely nothing. it is important to open up the gap between your lips while playing your crescendo a litte and closing it while playing decrescendo. the air speed doesn't differ between playing loud and playing quiet just the amount of air beeing used changes. tho get a higher register halftone lip slurrs are also a good practice. by using the combonation 0 2/3 1/2 1 2 in the natural tone selection while slurriing up and down
( all played on the b site of the horn. first with 0 slurring up as high as you get then down. that with every combination mentioned above) also while playing into the upper register you have to use more air speed and tighten your corners.

i hope this will help you with understanding the practise to the fullest.

Greets from Germany

corno


Re: High register becoming a psychological problem    02:00 on Friday, November 6, 2015          

corno
(7 points)
Posted by corno

@phred

I can understand your intention by giving this tip and can understand the reason vehind it but i'm always giving a warnung about this ibstruments because they can give you also false informations about hittibg the note. it is inportant to know how the note soubds and to know how much strengh is needed to play it thats for sure but in my opinion it is better to gain this wxperience by playing the horn your'e alwaya using. the descant horn was created to play the ultra high register with more safety but i know not even one professional player that is using it in practise or in hitting exercises. this instrument will only be used on stage. and after playing your super high passages you take it and put it into its case until it is really needed again.

i hope that i didn't insult you with going absolutely against this tip that is not my intention but i would prefer a more practical way bi using the things you already have at hand. if a teacher is nearby the best thing one can do is letting hin play the notes in the start so that you can hear how they have to sound and then trying to reproduce them on your own instrument. playing in the high register is harsh. it took me going up from the notation of the g2 to the a2 about a year but its always worth the effort. when you can play it safe when you need it you will always get back there again even if you have paused fir a longer time.


Re: High register becoming a psychological problem    02:02 on Friday, November 6, 2015          

corno
(7 points)
Posted by corno

ps: sorry about the incorrect words since im from germany my autocorrection plays sometimes tricks on me ;-)


Re: High register becoming a psychological problem    11:08 on Friday, November 6, 2015          

Colombo
(56 points)
Posted by Colombo

Thanks a lot for your suggestions! I'll try to play these notes as you suggest. Somehow, I feel more cheerful after reading all your advice. I was going through a low with my playing, and I hope it'll soon be over. Thanks!


Re: High register becoming a psychological problem    12:24 on Friday, November 6, 2015          

phred
(157 points)
Posted by phred

Como, no worries. I'm an enthusiast who majored in music conducting and composition almost 25 years ago, who always had issues with my high register. I played in a few local orchestras (semi-pro?) that had paid principals and auditioned amateurs. I then quit for nearly 15 years, because of the high end problems. It took me discovering two things, that I had to forget my embouchure I'd been using (I know use a more towards the inside of the lower-lip dropped jaw embouchure) and dealing with the issue of a nickel allergy that had been leaving my lips semi-numbed and swollen. Switching to stainless steel made all the difference. On top of that, I sold a Texas 8D I had, used those funds (plus some savings) to buy a nice instrument (paxman). Literally, within a month, went from having a secure F to a secure Bb. The decision to purchase a good horn was because I had the opportunity to play on one and hear that I could play notes I thought I could not. There are so many variables, that just hearing it is possible can make a huge difference in ones decision to play or not. I'm no pro, but have been asked to teach at the local music studio, and I always let my students try my horn. Just the flow is so much better than their $800 Chinese instruments, that they can hear it is possible for themselves. I still do a lot of just warming up as practice, rather than working on pieces, because I know my high-end needs work, but even for myself, hearing those notes notch gives me the courage to work on the Bb side. It is such a difficult instrument, that a lot of what I do is encourage students to work on the basics, and then the rest will come. My beginning 20 minutes are low notes, slurs up, half-step notch exercises, high notes. If that's all I do, that's fine, but frequently, busy students and amateurs don't have more than 30 minutes a day (if that) and psychology is just as important as work. No offense taken, just looking at things from the perspective of an adult learner who quit and returned. And yes, your exercises are the ones to do, just figured they'd been gone over with Colombo before. -phred


Re: High register becoming a psychological problem    07:14 on Saturday, November 7, 2015          

corno
(7 points)
Posted by corno

Sehens like we're Almuts the Same phred :D i've eben playing for 20 years and Quiz ohne time die only a year. That caused me to lose everything i've got regarding my embochure. In Germany we are Lucky enough to get good Instruments vom the Amateur Orchestras if we don't own an Instrument ( i brought myself an old Alex 102st recently) i'm also in a Teaching Position And active in 4 Orchestras These Days ( 1 symphony orchestra And 3 smyphonic wind Orchestras) i Know what you mean about the psycological Problems like Alessa playing slower while going up the Register and things like that. I believe the best thing to overcome these issue is by getting confidence trough practice. Its the same an athlete does. I'm talking to my students about the problems right from the start and try to give Thiem the hints i didnt have from the start when i took up the horn again. I believe it works like this the best als they Know from the Start how much work is involved.

I'm practicing at least an hour per Day by the way Even thought i'm coming home only at 9pm during the week;-)


Re: High register becoming a psychological problem    16:12 on Saturday, November 7, 2015          

Colombo
(56 points)
Posted by Colombo

-----
phred wrote (sorry, I don't know how to quote):

And yes, your exercises are the ones to do, just figured they'd been gone over with Colombo before.
-----


Yes, I've done that kind of exercises before. Only I didn't know what they were for. I mean, I thought that playing long notes starting as softly as I can, going to my loudest point and coming back to playing softly was intended to improve my dynamics, not my range. I've often done this sort of exercise, since playing more than f has always been difficult for me, but probably never beyond high D or so.


   




This forum: Older: Allora FH
 Newer: trying to find the right horn for me

© 2000-2024 8notes.com