 Re: Tips and Myths- Buying a new flute
Re: Tips and Myths- Buying a new flute
00:15 on Saturday, May 19, 2007
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Re: Tips and Myths- Buying a new flute
08:45 on Saturday, May 19, 2007
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Re: Tips and Myths- Buying a new flute
01:09 on Sunday, December 2, 2007
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Re: Tips and Myths- Buying a new flute
05:24 on Sunday, December 2, 2007
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Re: Tips and Myths- Buying a new flute
15:06 on Sunday, December 2, 2007
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Re: Tips and Myths- Buying a new flute
20:24 on Sunday, December 2, 2007
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Account Closed
(324 points)
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Dear remnantpark:
Despite what others have said, I can tell you that: an open hole flute is superior, in that you can "feel" the airstream coming through the tube.
This gives you more control over intonation, sonority, muting, tone-color, etc.
In forty years of playing, I have never found a Plateau flute that compares with the tone quality given by an open hole flute.
Also consider that an open hole flute, because of it's "ring" --as opposed to a "solid" key covering, with its "heavy pad" will always give you more rapid articulation than a Plateau flute.
I would find it very challenging to play "Suite de Trois Merceau" (Godard) on a Plateau flute --- where I have no problem with my open hole flute.
I'm NOT trying to sell open hole flutes, here. I have no axe to grind. IF, it is, indeed, a Plateau flute that you are more comfortable with, then by all means: "go for it".
Keep one thing in mind, however: most "pros" and "serious amateur artists" always opt for the open hole flutes. Why? Just to 'look good' and 'sound professional'? (That ridiculous position has been postured before, on this forum|).
I don't think so. NO serious artist would ever spend the money to buy an open hole flute, if it were not better. And they All do. Open hole flutes cost more, are more expensive to overhaul ---- but hold their retail value far better than their counterpart Plateau flutes. Why? Because they're more desired and are, quite simply, better than Plateau flutes. And that's NOT "just to look good". (What a ridiculous position to take).
Here is a list of artists who ONLY play open hole flutes and would never consider a Plateau flute:
Tracy Harris, Rhonda Larson, James Pellerite, Murray Panitz, James Galway --- and the list goes on and on. I have, in fact NEVER found a "serious" flutist who would even consider a Plateau flute. Those flutes are relegated to "student" flutes.
Open hole flutes, simply, impart a better tonal quality. This comes from both manufacturers and artists, alike. Miyazwa, has, in fact, discontinued its Plateau flutes, expect upon special order.
And, solid silver is an important consideration. There are some who will posture, on this forum, that "nickle/silver-plated flutes" are "just as good" as solid silver. Please. Get real. Solid silver provides a far better tone than "student - nickle/silver-plated flutes". Now, who on earth would argue with that? Yeah, some on this forum, just to contradict me, will.
There are those on the forum who know more about flute construction than I. They will oppose my (above) arguments. But, I've been playing for many, many years. And I can promise you that I've tested many, many different flutes.
Metal does make a difference in tone. Period. Whether silver, gold, platinum or titanium --- and, belive me -- I've tested them all.
End conclusion? Get a solid silver flute --- or, at least, a flute with a solid silver head-joint.
Finally --- as I've said before --- always test flutes, side-by-side. This is the only way you'll know just which flute is right for you. You have to find that flute which is most comfortable for you, sounds the best to you, and fits your needs.
Best of luck: Jim
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Re: Tips and Myths- Buying a new flute
21:22 on Sunday, December 2, 2007
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Flutist06
(1545 points)
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Dear remnantpark:
Despite what others have said, I can tell you that: an open hole flute is superior, in that you can "feel" the airstream coming through the tube.
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This would only make open holes superior if it were something a player enjoyed. Not everyone does. The fact that you can "feel the airstream" does not make you more capable of performing musically, nor will plateau models limit this ability. If you're a talented flutist, you'll make music regardless of what style keys your flute has.
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This gives you more control over intonation, sonority, muting, tone-color, etc. | |
First of all, what is "muting?" Intonation, tone color and the rest are reliant on the player, and then the headjoint. The keys do not have any impact on your ability to play well, assuming that they are not placed in unduly uncomfortable places.
[qupte]
In forty years of playing, I have never found a Plateau flute that compares with the tone quality given by an open hole flute.
Assuming that you have actually played for 40 years (which I strongly doubt, but that's a different discussion), this statement just makes me question your experience in the realm of flutes. If you've only played plateau STUDENT models and professional French models, this opinion is not surprising, but it is nonetheless baseless. To form any meaningful opinion, you must compare flutes of the same quality, where only one variable differs.
Also consider that an open hole flute, because of it's "ring" --as opposed to a "solid" key covering, with its "heavy pad" will always give you more rapid articulation than a Plateau flute. |
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Not only is this not true, but there's no scientific basis for this supposition. Response is a function of the headjoint, not the keys. If the pads are leaking (which is actually much more likely on French models, unless plugs are used), then response may diminish, but what style of keys you have plays no role in determining response so long as everything is sealing properly.
I would find it very challenging to play "Suite de Trois Merceau" (Godard) on a Plateau flute --- where I have no problem with my open hole flute. |
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That's most likely a psychological problem you suffer from, and a rather unfortunate one at that.
| I'm NOT trying to sell open hole flutes, here. I have no axe to grind. IF, it is, indeed, a Plateau flute that you are more comfortable with, then by all means: "go for it". |
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If you're not trying to "sell" French models, why go to the trouble to write endless long-winded posts supporting them, many times completely unsolicited? Your opinion may be that they're superior, but as we've been over endlessly with you (both publicly and privately), the simple fact is that they are not. It's a matter of preference, and neither French nor Plateau models offer any benefit over the other (This last sentence of mine would be good example of not trying to sell anyone on one or the other).
| Keep one thing in mind, however: most "pros" and "serious amateur artists" always opt for the open hole flutes. Why? Just to 'look good' and 'sound professional'? (That ridiculous position has been postured before, on this forum|). |
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No, most don't. Most AMERICAN pros and serious amateurs will have open holes, partly because that's what's available (it's much more difficult, expensive, and time consuming to find a flute above the student level with closed holes in America), and partly because they grew up seeing them as a step above plateau models. Even if we limit ourselves to American flutists, most with open holes will NEVER need them. The French keys are good only for minute pitch shading, extended effects (glissandi, multiphonics, etc.), and some notes into the fourth octave.
I don't think so. NO serious artist would ever spend the money to buy an open hole flute, if it were not better.
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You seem to have serious problems recognizing that it's not the open holes most are buying. Most people buy a flute because it performs better than their current equipment. They're buying a a high quality flute that HAPPENS to have open holes, not the holes themselves.
Once again, no, they don't. In your small-minded world, where only American players in major symphony orchestras are worthy of being considered flute players, then perhaps this holds true, but there are some fantastic professional players who do indeed use plateau keys.
Open hole flutes cost more, are more expensive to overhaul ---- but hold their retail value far better than their counterpart Plateau flutes. Why? Because they're more desired and are, quite simply, better than Plateau flutes. And that's NOT "just to look good". (What a ridiculous position to take). |
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Open hole flutes do not cost more...High quality flutes (which in the US, general means they have open holes) do cost more than their lower quality counterparts, but not directly because of the holes. Most makers producing handmade flutes charge the same price regardless of key style, assuming all other features are the same. Whether they are more expensive to overhaul depends on many, many factors, not the least of which is the tech that you're using. I use some of the best techs in the country, and my primary tech does not factor in key style to determine cost. French keys may be more desired in the US, but that does not mean they're any better...It just means that people like you have fallen prey to the retailers who try to convince you that they are. Frankly, I have trouble imagining any more ridiculous a position to take than the one you've set yourself in.
Here is a list of artists who ONLY play open hole flutes and would never consider a Plateau flute:
Tracy Harris, Rhonda Larson, James Pellerite, Murray Panitz, James Galway --- and the list goes on and on. I have, in fact NEVER found a "serious" flutist who would even consider a Plateau flute. Those flutes are relegated to "student" flutes. |
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And there's an equally long list of players on that play plateau models. Whether or not any of the folks on your list would ever consider a Plateau flute really isn't up for you to speak about. The fact that you've never found a "serious" flutist who plays on a plateau model only speaks of your extremely limited experience (if any) in the flute world, and your small-minded definition of what a flutist is.
Open hole flutes, simply, impart a better tonal quality. This comes from both manufacturers and artists, alike. Miyazwa, has, in fact, discontinued its Plateau flutes, expect upon special order. |
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French keys offer no improvement in tone over Plateau keys. It's all a matter of preference and comfort. One is not better than the other. As for Miyazawa, at the root of it, they're a business, and will produce whatever they can sell. As long as there are poorly informed folks such as yourself who are convinced that French keys are superior, they're going to sell a substantial number of French models, and thus will produce more of these. I'd say the fact that they're still producing plateau models says far more than the fact that they're special orders. If plateau models were so horribly inferior, no flute maker in their right mind would offer them at all.
| And, solid silver is an important consideration. There are some who will posture, on this forum, that "nickle/silver-plated flutes" are "just as good" as solid silver. Please. Get real. Solid silver provides a far better tone than "student - nickle/silver-plated flutes". Now, who on earth would argue with that? Yeah, some on this forum, just to contradict me, will. |
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Silver plated flutes can be just as good as solid silver flutes, but I wouldn't expect someone with such appallingly little experience testing instruments as you to recognize this. If you've ever played a vintage French flute (which were usually nickel silver/silver plate flutes) such as a Louis Lot, then you'll realize that as long as they are in good mechanical order and everything is sealing, they can be absolutely sublime instruments (regardless of key style). By that same token, there are plenty of solid silver junkers (Cibaili, Sky, Selman, etc.) that aren't worth the material that goes into them. The material does not determine how well a flute plays...The design and craftsmanship do. I assure you that I don't disagree just to contradict you....I disagree because you've been spouting absolute bull all over this forum for weeks now, and I'm tired of reading it, as I'm sure many others are.
There are those on the forum who know more about flute construction than I. They will oppose my (above) arguments. But, I've been playing for many, many years. And I can promise you that I've tested many, many different flutes. |
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I doubt your claims about your experience. Frankly, your demeanor and manner of communication do not speak of a man (at least) in his mid-sixties. Then there are the anachronisms (such as your claim that growing up, wooden flutes were all anyone played). However, this is another discussion, and I won't go into it any further here. If, however, we assume that what you claim is true, then your 40+ years of playing obviously have left you in a sadly inadequate state to comment on what is important to a flute's performance.
Metal does make a difference in tone. Period. Whether silver, gold, platinum or titanium --- and, belive me -- I've tested them all. |
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Well aside from the obvious condescension you show this entire forum by your inclusion of "period" in your claim (making it clear that you consider your post as all anyone could ever need to read on this point), your claim is dubious at best. All reliable scientific data shows that material does not make a difference. If you feel otherwise, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but at least do us all the favor of showing some respect to those of us who don't agree with your ideas. On a side note, it's interesting that a few days ago you were claiming not to have any experience with titanium, and now you're saying you've played it. Titanium flutes are not common (in fact, there are only 2 in the world, and only one is playable), so the odds that that's true are slim at best. Not to mention that when you first arrived here, you claimed only experience on Powell and Haynes flutes, and now you're saying you've "tested them all."
End conclusion? Get a solid silver flute --- or, at least, a flute with a solid silver head-joint. |
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My end conclusion, after reading all the gibberish you've been flooding this forum with, is that anything and everything you write should be disregarded.
Finally --- as I've said before --- always test flutes, side-by-side. This is the only way you'll know just which flute is right for you. You have to find that flute which is most comfortable for you, sounds the best to you, and fits your needs.
Best of luck: Jim |
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FINALLY! Something that actually makes sense from you. If only you could be trained to leave your posts at this.
Jim, please realize here and now that I will NOT be responding to any of your private messages. If you'd like to respond to this (as I'm sure you will), please do so on the open board IN THIS THREAD. Anything you send me privately will be deleted before being read.
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