You`re right, Titus. I am in the UK. But I do know ebay rather well and the Kohr cellos on ebay are there for all to see. Still, I wish you luck. Why don`t you tell us your ebay id then we can all follow the auction when you list it again?

Liz

Sean is not a dealer, just a player who is convinced that old instruments are always better than new (a rather odd point of view when you think about it since it would imply that a German trade instrument from 1920 or so is going to be better than a master made one selling today for many thousands of pounds)

At the end of the day, Titus, if you REALLY want to sell your cello (rather than just sitting there posting about it) then go to a specialist forum such as maestronet, where US dealers, some of whom deal on ebay and some of whom deal from speciliast shops, are numerous, and ask there how best to do it. I`m afraid you`ll get the same answer you have got from me, but do by all means go and ask.

Liz

I`ve wasted too much money on ebay as far as trying to sell it there. I think that my next move will be to take it to a dealer in Denver, and have him sell it. He will sell at whatever my asking price is, and take 20% for himself. Then again, I may just trade it in to the dealer who I bought it from for a new bow, I don`t know. We`ll see what happens.

As far as old instruments ALWAYS being better than new instruments, I`d have to disagree. But that`s pretty vague. I do believe that a Strad is a much better instrument than anything out today. Why? For the simple fact that stringed instruments get better with time. Well, anyway, I`m just repeating myself now, so I`ll shut up.



Titus

PS FYI, I have had a few people contact me about my cello, but have later decided that they would "outgrow" it (technically, not physically) too quickly, and needed something up a level. But, they were willing to pay my asking price.

Liz is absolutely correct.

Liz is absolutely correct.

Guys two sides have been represented, two sides have defended arguments, no one will win. This is an obvious fact. Let`s just leave it at what`s been said. I weary at debating endlessly with no end. We are both totally sure that we are correct. I believe that if you sell your instrument in good condition that there is no sense in selling it for anything less than you paid for it. You beleive that instruments depreciate over a matter of a few months like a car would. Both arguments sound bogus to the other side. I`m done arguing, and I think that you guys should be too.



Titus

I`d have to agree with Liz as well. New instruments depreciate, strings included, especially new cheap mass-produced factory instruments.

As good as it may be, what you are selling amounts to a cheap student cello. If I were the average buyer of a cheap cello (for a child, or for an adult beginner) I would certainly not pay the retail price or more for a cheap cello. If I am buying a used cheap cello I want to know I got a bargain. A bargain would be roughly 1/2 of what a brand new one would cost.

(Now, the price of a used cheap cello should hold much better, since it has already depreciated. If I pay $500 I can expect to get roughly $500 for it again in a year or two - because it remains a bargain).

The only possible reason I can think of to pay as much or more than the original price of a cheap cello, is if it happened to be a particularily good sounding instrument (and that is luck of the draw to a great extent) and someone had spent considerable money to have it set-up better. Such a set up might include having the fingerboard replaned, a new bridge cut, the soundpost reset, maybe better-quality fittings (I would not consider strings in this equation, since they need to be changed regularily regardless of their purchase price). I might also pay more if the bow were an upgrade and the case.

Even then, the seller will have to sell for a loss because he will likely not recover the purchase price of all the extras he put in.

I certainly would not be paying more just because it had been played - I can play it myself thank-you. I don`t want to pay you to play it (and that`s what you arguement is amounting to).

I would also hesitate to buy from an individual on eBay vs. a company. If I buy from a company and something goes wrong in transit, they hopefully would do what they could to rectify the problem, if I buy from an individual, what can they do? Replace the cello?

I also don`t think you can compare a Strad (or other famous made instrument) to a cheap factory instrument. Strads cost as much as they do primarily because of their provenance - and less so because of their sound. There are many bad sounding Strads out there (but their owners won`t admit to it because who wants to admit to paying thousands or millions for a crappy instrument?).

Your cheap cello does not have a valuable provenance; unless you just happen to be some combination of rich or famous.

So have fun selling your instrument. And should the planets be arranged in such a fashion as to allow you to sell it for what you bought it for, at least realize that you did luck out.

YOU ARE ALL CRAZY!!!! This is insane. Do I have to get an appraisel note from my shopt to shut everyone up? What the heck? I`ve said two times now to leave it alone.

You`ve forced me to address this last reply. FYI, the Kohr instruments are the top end of student cellos. The next step higher without paying $5,000 or more would be an Eastman cello, and they`re even like $3,000. You`re crazy if you think that what I have is a "cheap" cello. I`ve had many people play on it (some pro`s) and they all say that for the price, you can`t beat it. EVEN AT RETAIL OR HIGHER!!! Liz said that instruments depreciate with inflation... True, but here in the US we`ve had very little inflation over the past few years, so at best I`ve lost $100 off of the price, and the appreciation of an instrument, even a lower end instrument will more than exceed that ammount. When you all can show me a Kohr instrument that was well taken care, and depreciated over a period of 3-4 years, I`d like to know. No one that I`ve ever talked to thought that any of my asking prices were unreasonable for my instrument.

Now please, can we leave it at that? Like I said in my last post we`ve both made our point, and I`m not going to back down from my belief`s, and you`re going going to back down from yours. This is a pointless debate with no end to it. I wish very much that you all concure with my wish to end this. Thank you.



Titus

Don`t keep arguing

I will continue to defend myself as long as people are going on the offense against me. I will make no more offensive statements on this subject. If you all will concede a truce, then it is done. Until that point I am forced to continue defending my statements. Thank you.




Titus

Titus, people come and go all the time on forums like this. If someone sees the thread and wants to comment, they will comment. There`s really not a lot you can do about that.

But you should not feel insulted by talk of "cheap cellos". Many in the US regard any VIOLIN below $5000 as a student violin, and cellos cost an awful lot more than violins (the Kohr K500 cello costs three times as much as the Kohr K500 violin for example) No-one here has said that a kohr K500 is a bad buy for the price, the point being made to you is simply that yours is USED and comes WITHOUT A GUARANTEE and those two factors are going to reduce the price to about half the lowest internet price. If you don`t want to believe that, that is your right, but really there is little point in arguing about it because the plain fact is you have not sold it ....

For the record, there are many cellos between $1500 and $5000, Eastman is only one. Kohr themselves do several models that are higher than the K500 and then there are the East European brands as well as other Chinese brands.

In conclusion (and this signs me out of this thread unless anyone posts anything that i feel needs a reply), if you don`t want to sell your cello below a certain price, don`t sell it. No-one can force you to sell it you know.

Liz

Personally when I bought my instruments, I loved taking advantage of their stupidity of selling there instruments for about 20-30 times cheaper than they were worth, HAHAHAHAHA!!!!! If I ever sold them, it would obviously be for a heck of a lot more than I paid for them.

If you bought them on ebay then that`s not entirely surprising: we used to deal in used instruments but found that it was impossible to get anything like a reasonable price on ebay. We could see a used violin selling for perhaps a tenth of the list price and we would bid and expect to make a big profit. We learned quickly that after repair costs (even with the cheapest repairer we could find) we made a loss more often than a profit. It is very difficult on ebay to convince buyers that your used instrument is in full playing order, even if you are a dealer, hence buyers will only pay rockbottom prices, but it almost seems that they pay those same prices whatever the original price of the instrument, so a violin that was originally £50 will make as much on ebay as a violin that was originally £500, or so it seems, until you get into the really good instruments when the competition hots up a bit. Ebay is a funny place.

This means that if you are looking to buy for your own use and are prepared to add the repair costs to the price then you can indeed get a great bargain compared to what you would pay in a violin shop. Good news for buyers (as long as the buyer allows for repair costs), very bad news for sellers.

liz

I`ve never played an old cello (who cares who made it) that sounded bad. I don`t expect for an old antique instrument on sale to be in perfect order. It doesn`t matter to me because I`ll just fix it. I know how stringed instruments work and I never took any classes in instrument making or anything like that, but it`s easier than most people think to fix stress cracks, open seems, holes, revarnish or etc...

Look Liz, I understand what you are saying, and I agree to a certain point. Arguing does only so much good. That is why I`m trying to put an end to the debating. It really pi**es me off that someone would come on and tell me what kind of instrument that I have without seeing it or hearing it. Know-it-alls like that really put a burr under my saddle. You at least presented yourself without seeming too snooty and stuck up. I appreciate that. You are a respectable person. I only wish more people were the same way.......

Granted, my cello would not be sold with any formal garuntees, but as a person who`s been cheated, I would come to an agreement if anyone complained after buying my cello. I don`t mind saying that you are right that it will be hard to sell it online for my asking price. Actually, I`ve gone ahead and ordered some bows in the price range of what I can get for my cello on trade, and I am going to try them out. I`ve been trying to sell this thing for about 9 months now, and am wearying..... I work a job at almost 30 hours a week, still in High School, and play in an orchestra which could easliy occupy another 15-20 hours a week. Needless to say this will be a burden off of my back.

My point with the Eastman cellos is that they are one of the more reknowned models, especially here in the US. I personally would take my Kohr over an Eastman any day of the year, but that`s just me. I know that there are probably a thousand different brands of cellos between the price of 1500-5000 USD, if not more.

Anyway, I appreciate all of the feedback, though it wasn`t all completely contructive, it`s nice to know that people out there are willing to write in and discuss these things. Thanks again......




Titus