Travel

Whatever issue you have with Joe B - settle it without posting your complaints on my thread.

I am trying to have a serious discussion here - which you are more than welcome to throw in your two cents - Concerning the topic I started.

But as far as declaring affiliations etc....... leave that out of my thread if you please.

Since this is my thread...I have already stated that I do not have an issue with Joe - his affiliation with Pearl - whether he declares it or not - WHATEVER

Maybe I'm a Japanese Jet Pilot - with ties to Powell flutes....married to the daughter of the president of Haynes flutes -

That belongs in the catagory of - SO WHAT !!!

Joe isn't making a profit off his advice as far as I can tell

And even if he did...that still doesn't mean he needs to declare his affiliation every time he offers advice or comments on a thread or particular post.

I am well aware that Joe B works for Pearl - He is a professional. I appreciate his help and advice....

As I do your advice - you don't have to declare to me - who you are to have a discussion with me -

Either I take your advice - or I don't

Joe never said I had to heed everything he said where flutes are concerned.

So let's STOP this bickering - agree to disagree - and move on.

I want to change the subject anyway......my next post will be about headjoints

Please feel free to weigh in on the topic........

I still think you need a beer.......kicking the neighbors dog is optional however

Listen dopey

don't tell me what to write - or post on here

and since I started this particular thread - I don't appreciate you coming on here and hyjacking it to push your moral hi ground garbage

get off your soapbox - keep your opinions to yourself

and if I want to ask advice about flutes...headjoints...or the size of bigfoots nike sweater - I will do it

you're a royal pain in the ass buddy

Now do me a favor - go dig yourself a hole and jump in it

Not trying to be a troll here, just want to know some things and am posing some questions ....

Why would any tech not like to work on Pearls? The conventional flute knock pins are a pain to remove and install and that task does pose a risk if the tool you use for the purpose slips. (Yes I know, flute techs usually use a specialized combination die-punch-vice to minimize this risk, but "some" techs still use a free-handed punch and hammer approach, with the key not locked down in a vice of any kind.) Pearl stack keys come apart with a single tiny allen wrench. No risky procedures or expensive tooling involved.

In the same vein ... and like the above, this is not a trollistic rhetorical question ... I'd like to know if the traditional knock-pin approach actually has any advantages over pinless, and what they are. Offhand, I can still think of a few additional advantages of the pinless approach.

Travel.Joe-
"Ladies you're both beautiful so shut the hell up"
Just let everyone do their own thing kay . Jeeze people this guys asking for help and you all are hissing like a bunch of cats. Btw I tried a pearl, loved it, keywork a little clinky but gorgeous sound.

I'd like to know if the traditional knock-pin approach actually has any advantages over pinless, and what they are. Offhand, I can still think of a few additional advantages of the pinless approach.

There are no mechanical advantages to the traditional pinned mechanism I can think of. Pinned and pinless are just different. If there is any advantage, you would need to specify the particular pinless design. Some are more complicated to put back together compared to a pinned mechanism. Others are just as easy.

It would be a lot easier to identify the disadvantages of a pinned mechanism.

Joe B

Joe, thank you for your pertinent reply. I may be wrong but my impression was that Pearl is still currently the only flutemaker offering the pinless design from its entry-level models on up. I have no special beefs against the conventional pinned design but I do think the pinless approach is more robust (at least in theory), less exposed to wear or binding. I've taken a couple of Pearls apart completely and they went back together fairly easily with no signs of user error.

Another question: Isn't a headjoint considered hand-cut if the craftsman uses a scraper to under- and over-cut the embouchure hole? Or is there something more involved with the use of the words "hand-crafted" or "hand-cut"?

Along the lines of the last postr...Joe - what exactly HAS been done to Hand Finish the Forza headjoint ?

The flute is great by the way....the Headjoint works very well for me.

I am very impressed with the overall quality of the 665

For me - it turned out to be a happy medium - so to speak....just as good as the Di Zhao 700 as far as I'm concerned.

Do you happen to know what differences there are between the two ? I am referring to the manner in which each is made. Is the forza embouchure hole machine cut - and THEN finished by hand - I was under the assumption the Di Zhao embouchure hole was completely cut / shaped by hand

Obviously....I am in error - can you please explain what goes on when a technician sits down and goes to work on shaping the embouchure hole.

TRAVEL2165

I can't decide on who posts on my thread...but I can choose to ignore you.

By the way ...trying to hyjack my thread to criticize Joe B about his affiliations with Pearl is not cool. And If I have offended you...maybe you NEED to be offended.

I give you permission to have the last word

EvFlute17

Thank you for trying to make peace......

And YES...the Pearl is an excellent Flute.

The arguing really needs to stop......although I must admit it's also kind of mildly entertaining.

Kind of like watching professional wrestlers play in an orchestra.

Your welcome , seriously people, if you don't have something nice to say don't say anything. Yeah finding a flute that fits you best is awesome. When I got mine I was like opening the case every chance I got and wouldn't let anyone touch it. I like hissed at my friend. lol

Yes, Pearl is the only manufacturer to make a complete line of pinless flutes. Everything from student through pro, harmony flutes and piccolos are all our same basic pinless concept. We were the first to introduce a complete line and still the only. Our pinless is quite simple too, which makes it easy for anyone to work on.

Another question: Isn't a headjoint considered hand-cut if the craftsman uses a scraper to under- and over-cut the embouchure hole? Or is there something more involved with the use of the words "hand-crafted" or "hand-cut"?

Hand cut, handmade, Hand finished are marketing descriptors and don't really speak to the actual manufacturing process. If you want to be really technical, ANY flute, ANY manufacturer is "hand made". Flutes are fairly complex and there are few purely automated steps at the production level. These steps are often used even in pro flutes. Hand cut, hand finished, hand crafted all mean that a craftsman oversees and finishes the final product, be it by scraper or hand control of machine. This is the only way to truly bring consistency to any product. Today, most of the tedious work of rough cutting is done by CNC machine. Then a craftsman does the touch up to the required specs. Could be a scraper, could be a mill, etc, etc..

As quality increases to pro level, the differences are in Quality of materials, Design aspects, and delivering very high levels of manufacturing tolerance. Machines aid a lot towards consistency, but final human touches often make a huge difference.

Here's a picture of a Forza being hand finished at our factory, (just so you can understand easier..)

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B1SrkrZ7j7Yfdl9reDRPa3lEUmc

Joe B

Obviously....I am in error - can you please explain what goes on when a technician sits down and goes to work on shaping the embouchure hole.

Production shops use pretty much the same procedure if it is hand cut or handfinished in the Asian shops. Rough cut is done by machine, final cuts are done by a craftsman, Could be a hand scraper, but most likely machine assisted as in the picture.

You are more likely to find completely finished holes cut with scraper only through private individual makers. Again consistency is the issue, there may be a great collection of headjoints but the differences run a wider range. (generally speaking and depending on who the maker is and their individual skill)

Joe B

I have met Joe in person at the last National Flute Convention and can say that he is the ultimate professional, extremely knowledgeable, and personable too.

My main flute is a professional flute that has a pinless mechanism. When compared to my backup flute (professional flute, pinned mechanism, no adjusting screws), it wins hands down. The mechanism is quick and has a very smooth buttery feeling to it. All of the keys have the same tension on them. Can't say that with my backup flute, nor my camping flute (step-up flute, pinned mechanism, with adjusting screws). The later two have gone out of adjustment from time to time. The Pinless mechanism flute plays like it is brand new two years later and has not had any adjustment issues.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

I kind of missed the fireworks since I check this site every month or so, as it's kind of slow as of late.

The nitty-gritty of flutes is that the body rarely makes a difference other than options like trill keys, inline vs offset, what type of pads are on it, and so on. But even those are personal preference more than anything.

Why? Because in the end, a flute's body is a metal tube with holes that you plug up in order to make notes. If they didn't play in tune, then nobody would buy them. That is to say, as an example, the body of a basic Powell will sound identical to the body of their top-end model, because, well, it has to in order to function properly.

Not all flutes are made the same, naturally. Pearl, for instance, is made a bit better than Yamaha, IMO. But it's not close to the brute-force approach of a Brannen/Kingma. Of course, it's also a LOT less expensive than a Brannen. But as far as metals, drawn versus regular holes, open vs closed holes, and so on, it's all window dressing that you (often) pay a lot for. And, no, metals make no difference that your audience can actually hear.

So where is the real sound coming from? The player and the head joint for the most part. This is why so many makers are having to also make mid-line models like this. Because tons of players started to do exactly that starting about 20 years or so ago. They would simply get a professional headjoint and keep their old body.

Now you can just buy a flute set up like this. It's really a win-win.

Personally the Forza didn't sound any different than a high-end Yamaha. The Forza is a lot like the handmade EC that Yamaha makes. (which IS a good headjoint, nonetheless. But to be honest, it's a "nice" headjoint. It simply doesn't sing like the better ones Pearl makes.

As for good headjoints without getting into silly money, I personally like the Pearl Calore, the Powell Venti, and the Yamaha K type. If you like the Pearl and can get one of their upper-end headjoints on it instead, consider paying the price difference.