Sonate IV in C for Flute by Bach (BWV 1033) movements?

    
Sonate IV in C for Flute by Bach (BWV 1033) movements?    15:54 on Tuesday, December 5, 2006          

jwillis
(37 points)
Posted by jwillis

I posted this over on the general forum but decided to post it here as well.

Solo/Ensemble contest requires movements 1-2 or 2-3, but where does each movement end and the next begin?

I see the Andante (including Presto) as the first, the Allegro as the second, the Adagio as the third, and the Menuetto I and Menuetto II as the fourth movement. However, I've been told the Andante is the first, both the Allegro and Adagio are the second, and both Minuettos are the third. Which is it?

Also, any idea on tempos for these sections?

Thanks, J.


Re: Sonate IV in C for Flute by Bach (BWV 1033) movements?    18:02 on Tuesday, December 5, 2006          

Patrick
(1743 points)
Posted by Patrick

the first one, the first movement is andante/presto


Re: Sonate IV in C for Flute by Bach (BWV 1033) movements?    20:25 on Tuesday, December 5, 2006          

Bilbo
(1340 points)
Posted by Bilbo

Patrick has it correct.
andante/presto is the 1st mvt.

andante/presto should be around 80 to the eighth and then the presto at 120 or better for the quarter.

The allegro can be relatively fast.
I've heard Mimi Stillman play it at about 180=quarter note.-double tongued but about 132 would probably be OK for
Solo/Ensemble.

The adagio should be about 80 = an eighth note.



Re: Sonate IV in C for Flute by Bach (BWV 1033) movements?    09:26 on Wednesday, December 6, 2006          

jwillis
(37 points)
Posted by jwillis

Thank you both so much. The explaination of the tempos is a huge help.

However, I'm still confused on what exactly are the 2nd and 3rd movements.

Would the 2nd be - The Allegro by itself or both the Allegro and the Adagio?

Would the 3rd be - The Adagio (if not included in the 2nd)? Or both Menuetto I and II? Or would the minuets be a 4th movement?


Re: Sonate IV in C for Flute by Bach (BWV 1033) movements?    10:55 on Wednesday, December 6, 2006          

Bilbo
(1340 points)
Posted by Bilbo

1)Andante/presto
2)Allegro
3)Adagio
4)Menuetto I and II

The movements are defined on the page by having the description above a fresh staff which breaks from the previous staff/movement.

When you perform the movements, there should be a few moments of space between to collect your thoughts for the next mood, tempo and such and the accompanilent should be alerted that you are going on.

The first movement mat be the confusing one because of the two tempi. This idea is relatively rare in the Baroque period but it is presented in this piece/movement.

The 4th movement is both of the two minuets, menuets or however they are spelled. Menuets can be presented on page in a pair (I and II) or in later periods as a Menuet and Trio (similar to a march or Waltz form) but with the Menuets they often have a Da Capo after Menuet II so they are really I, II, & I in form (with appropriate repeats).

It is interesting that this sonata has the Menuet movement. The Menuet is often a regular part of the dance form called a suite and not usually in a sonata.

Hope this does not confuse.
~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio


Re: Sonate IV in C for Flute by Bach (BWV 1033) movements?    13:28 on Wednesday, December 6, 2006          

DottedEighthNote
(180 points)

Bilbo and Patrick are correct for sure. If you want to hear a recording of this that will make your jaw hit the floor, Rhonda Larson has it on one of her Cd's and the piece is called Bach in a Minute. Of course the tempos are way out of whack, but I love listening to it. XD

It's a great piece. I hope you enjoy playing it. The Bach Sonatas are some of my favorite flute pieces from the Baroque period.


Re: Sonate IV in C for Flute by Bach (BWV 1033) movements?    12:43 on Thursday, December 7, 2006          

jwillis
(37 points)
Posted by jwillis

Bilbo, thanks for the verification of:

1)Andante/presto
2)Allegro
3)Adagio
4)Menuetto I and II

I was more than positive it had 4 movements but had been told otherwise. Yikes, going to solo/ensemble contest with the wrong movements would not have been wise.


Re: Sonate IV in C for Flute by Bach (BWV 1033) movements?    21:33 on Thursday, December 7, 2006          

Bilbo
(1340 points)
Posted by Bilbo

You are welcome,

1)Andante/presto >
2)Allegro
If anything, the first two Mvts. have a sort of relationship in that the presto in essence is a sort of prelude to the 2nd mvt. Allegro. One could play the 16ths at the same speed from the presto to the allegro.
If you don't get fooled by the time signatures, the relationship has some similarities in the notes especially between the keyboard parts of both movements.

Learning these pieces as if there are three lines I think is important and I believe that one should play these Bach Sonatas as trios in essence. The bass in the keyboard(part 3), the Right hand in the keyboard (part 2) and the Flute line(part 1). Although the flute is a different type of instrument maybe it isn't really a "solo instrument" 100% of the time -if ever.
Don't forget that J.S. Bach was devilishly clever in his counterpoint and the all time grand-master of the mathematics of music.
Some food for thought.
~Bilbo
N.E. Ohio

<Added>

P.S. Additional about the three parts idea.
I believe that the Menuets (Mvt. 4) were originally written for keyboard without any flute part at all.


   




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