Bore of high vs low natural horn keys

    
Bore of high vs low natural horn keys    07:27 on Friday, February 4, 2011          

karlbonner82
(39 points)
Posted by karlbonner82

Were there very many attempts in the late 18th and early 19th century to manage the difficulties associated with the "alto" and "basso" horn keys by using a different bore diameter? It seems to me that the congested sound and unstable attack of the low keys would be caused by the bore being too narrow relative to the tube length, causing the sound to get claustrophobic. (I used to make simple flutes out of PVC pipe and quickly found out that long, skinny dimensions produce a lot of the same characteristics on the flute that I get when I play partials on my horn using the 'low' fingerings (23, 13, 123).)

It seems to me that you could control for this by widening the bore somewhat. In fact, it makes sense that you ought to have THREE natural horns - one for the high keys of A, Bb and C alto that uses narrower bore; one for the middle keys of D through G; and one for the low keys Bb and C basso. Why is it that horn makers never went this route, at least not on an appreciable scale?


Re: Bore of high vs low natural horn keys    08:53 on Friday, February 4, 2011          

JOhnlovemusic
(1279 points)
Posted by JOhnlovemusic

You are comparing Flute physics with Horn physics. That's apples and oranges. I know what you are thinking about the flute being a long skinny pipe.

BUT - a Flute is an open cylindrical pipe and a Horn is a closed conical cone. That said, the lower keys and very high keys were difficult to play.

Did they think about larger bores? maybe - there was a lot of experimenting going on from the early to mid 1700's. But if there was any experiemtns with larger bores I am pretty sure it would have been ignored. It was very important to them at the time to find a single instrument that would take crooks. So the bore sizes would need to be similar. Because of the different characteristics of the different keys composers were expected to write certain types of passages for horn in certain keys. And there is mention of some composers being told to rewrite some pieces so they could be played in the easier keys. Which I am sure ticked off a composer or two as color of keys in that era was very important.


Re: Bore of high vs low natural horn keys    05:25 on Saturday, February 5, 2011          

karlbonner82
(39 points)
Posted by karlbonner82

I realize the flute's an apple and the horn an orange already. The point I was trying to make is that when it comes to timbre control and dynamic control, the flute and horn have some remarkable parallels. If you read the section from Philip Farkas' horn book dealing with the debate between F horns and Bb horns, he describes higher keys as being piercing and shrill, and hard to play softly - almost exactly my experience with short and thick flute bores. He describes low horn keys as (exact quote!) "thick and muddy, resulting in poor flexibility" - just like the longer skinnier flutes tend to do.

This means that as you move to higher flute keys, the absolute diameter of the bore should get smaller in tandem. And the lower flute keys should use a wider absolute bore diameter.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude that maybe higher horns should use narrower tubing and low horns wider tubing. Of course, it's unreasonable to use a separate horn for every single key signature, unless you bring a wheelbarrow out on stage filled with all of your umpteen horns so that you have quick access.

So you need to use crooks. However, while it may be unreasonable to own a dozen separate horns, it's not nearly as cumbersome to have three of them for high, middle, and low keys. Only trouble is that the crooks won't be interchangeable from one horn to another because of the bore disparities.

Even that might not be too much trouble. Crooks can be made to be very compact by coiling them. And even if they weren't coiled it would still be pretty reasonable to go down a major third. Look at it this way: the third valve on a modern horn drops the key by a minor third, and the entire extra tube length is confined to the third valve slide. A major-third slide for the F horn is only slightly longer than this. If you make it a bit longer still - voila! You have a major third crook for natural horn in D that will take you all the way down to Bb basso. If the high horn's highest key is C alto, the middle horn G, and the low horn D, all you need is three crooks for the high horn, four for the middle and three for the low.

It gets better still if you exploit the "trombone effect" by making the sliding part of your crooks fairly lengthy. One crook could cover the minor and major second and another the major and minor third, reducing the total number of required crooks to only 6. And the slide trombone was the first brass instrument ever to attain chromatic utility, so the knowledge and technology was definitely around by the second half of the 18th century.

Some purists may argue that the slide trombone doesn't count as a "natural" brass, because it's capable of chromatic musicianship. But the defining feature of natural horns is the lack of valves, not the lack of chromaticity. It was technology that brought the valved horn about, and long-slide crooks are much lower tech.

This is why I believe knowledge was the limiting factor. They knew that longer tubes have a lower pitch/key and shorter tubes a higher one. I guess it MIGHT be a possibility that they weren't much aware of the role that bore-length ratio plays in tone color. Or maybe they were skeptical that it would work, for much the same apple-and-orange reasons you gave. Or that the "trombone effect" would reduce the number of required onerous crooks. You have to put 2 and 2 together to come up with the conclusion I just did. But it still seems they would have to be pretty doggone ignorant in order for NOBODY to see this.

As soon as a few horn theorists reached the above conclusion, they would almost certainly want to do some experiments. Even if composers started implementing the horn key disparities into their compositions and made peace with them, others would most certainly have seen it as a significant problem, one that deserved a solution.

Of course, all of this would only work if the bore-length ratio really is the main culprit for tonal variations.


Re: Bore of high vs low natural horn keys    18:20 on Saturday, February 5, 2011          

JOhnlovemusic
(1279 points)
Posted by JOhnlovemusic

Karl,
You make great sense. I think that some players, tinkerers, and makers were aware of the bore to length ratio. Unfortunately, just because there is a good, logical idea doesn't mean everyone is going to take up on it.

The compromising masses I am sure squashed the independent thinker who was thinking like you. Holton is presently making a Horn with a duel bore system. The F Side is .468 and the Bb side is .460; the moutpipe stays the same. Paxman and others use(d) this rationale in their Descant Doubles, but only on the mouthpipe and main tuning slide, not on the valve tubes.

I have a prototype Bb Single Horn with two thumb valves.One Thumb valve is a whole step ascending valve, the second thumb valve is a descending valve which has a set of slides which allow me to place the instrument A, Ab, G, or F#. It is a wonderful idea and I use this Horn a lot when I am in the pit. But, good luck thinking any major manufacturer will pick up the idea. It's a different idea and it bothers people.

If you talk to the players in the major Symphony in my area 40% like the idea, not that they would play one, and the other 60% just don't get (and don't really want to). I think the makers of the day back in the 1700's ran into this same problem. Great ideas but out of the norm of what was already happening. Probably that and the fact that "Old Man Been HEre Forever" looked down on the inventiveness of the young and independent thinkers and therefore everyone else did also.


   




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